dead Pope Benedict XVI

[Magere Hein 1,397]

[snippage for brevity]

Anyway, the point is that the book also analyses many of the real papal candidates at that election. If its assessments are to be believed, Arinze simply isn't a very intelligent bloke. The other cardinals think he lacks the intellectual horsepower to be Pope.

As far as I know intelligence is not a job requirement. Of course intelligence may help to convince the other cardinals during the conclave, but there are other ways to get there, such as influence, money and political agility.

 

Apparently, although many bookies consider him a favourite, he didn't get any votes at all in the last conclave, if leaks are to be believed. Arinze is too old anyway, since he is now older than Ratzinger was when that bastard was elected.

Bookies don't elect the pope, so their opinion is not particularly relevant. If Pope Benny hangs on another two years he may render Arinze ineligible, as only cardinals < 80 y/o may be chosen.

 

A tiny number of the cardinals (4 or 5 at the most) do seem like genuinely decent people despite their conservatism but don't expect any of those ones to be elected and, of course, if they were, they would be brow-beaten by all of the Vatican Curia into towing the party line.

Conservatism is part of the job requirements for cardinals. Carreers of progressive priests tend to halt below bishop level, although Latin America has produced a few exceptions, such as Archbishop Óscar Romero of San Salvador, who got himself shot for being a decent chap.

 

Anyway, interesting to hear about Ratzinger's struggle to get through mass the other day. He is the type who might drop at any time, given his heart problems and previous minor strokes and stress of the job, with or without the child abuse crisis. If the Christmas Mass is early again this year, it might give some indication into what his doctors are thinking. He probably has another few years left in his tank, though.

I have a feeling he won't be dodging the coffin like his predecessor, but then again, I don't think the RC church is very keen on a new one soon, so they may well keep him going as long as they can.

 

regards,

Hein

[Windsor 2,143]

Apparently, although many bookies consider him a favourite, he didn't get any votes at all in the last conclave, if leaks are to be believed. Arinze is too old anyway, since he is now older than Ratzinger was when that bastard was elected.

Bookies don't elect the pope, so their opinion is not particularly relevant. If Pope Benny hangs on another two years he may render Arinze ineligible, as only cardinals < 80 y/o may be chosen.

 

Thats what I originally thought too, but it turns out that there is no upper age limit on being elected Pope - only an upper age limit on elective Cardinals.

[Magere Hein 1,397]

Apparently, although many bookies consider him a favourite, he didn't get any votes at all in the last conclave, if leaks are to be believed. Arinze is too old anyway, since he is now older than Ratzinger was when that bastard was elected.

Bookies don't elect the pope, so their opinion is not particularly relevant. If Pope Benny hangs on another two years he may render Arinze ineligible, as only cardinals < 80 y/o may be chosen.

Thats what I originally thought too, but it turns out that there is no upper age limit on being elected Pope - only an upper age limit on elective Cardinals.

Strictly speaken you're right. As I understand it, the College of Cardinals may elect any unmarried RC male as pope. In practice, however, they've chosen one of themselves ever since 1378, if I'm to believe that Wiki.

 

regards,

Hein

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

[snippage for brevity]

Anyway, the point is that the book also analyses many of the real papal candidates at that election. If its assessments are to be believed, Arinze simply isn't a very intelligent bloke. The other cardinals think he lacks the intellectual horsepower to be Pope.

As far as I know intelligence is not a job requirement. Of course intelligence may help to convince the other cardinals during the conclave, but there are other ways to get there, such as influence, money and political agility.

 

Agreed.

 

Apparently, although many bookies consider him a favourite, he didn't get any votes at all in the last conclave, if leaks are to be believed. Arinze is too old anyway, since he is now older than Ratzinger was when that bastard was elected.

Bookies don't elect the pope, so their opinion is not particularly relevant. If Pope Benny hangs on another two years he may render Arinze ineligible, as only cardinals < 80 y/o may be chosen.

 

Yes but some of the big punters may know about the factional maneuvering amongst the cardinals and lay bets accordingly, so that would affect the prices.

 

A tiny number of the cardinals (4 or 5 at the most) do seem like genuinely decent people despite their conservatism but don't expect any of those ones to be elected and, of course, if they were, they would be brow-beaten by all of the Vatican Curia into towing the party line.

Conservatism is part of the job requirements for cardinals. Carreers of progressive priests tend to halt below bishop level, although Latin America has produced a few exceptions, such as Archbishop Óscar Romero of San Salvador, who got himself shot for being a decent chap.

 

Agreed, especially about Romero. There have been a few liberal cardinals, though. Two examples are Cardinal Martini of Italy who was the leading liberal for a long time (now over 80) and Cardinal Godfried Daneels of Belgium. Unfortunately, Daneels' reputation is now in tatters after a tape was made public in which even he was pressuring a victim of child sex abuse to remain silent.

 

 

Just one question for Canadian Paul or somebody else from Canada who posts on this site.... At the moment, a lot of the Vatican watchers are saying three people in particular are strong possibilities to be the next Pope. There are two Italians, Angelo Scola and Gianfranco Ravasi and a French Canadian, Marc Ouellet. Does anyone know much about this Canadian guy? I googled but didn't find a whole lot. Is he just another Ratzinger arch-conservative bastard yes-man or has he shown any courage on the major issues like the child abuse and condoms?

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

Well, what do you know? It turns out there is going to be a new book coming out later this month in which a journalist confronts Herr Ratzinger.

 

 

"Never has a Pope, in a book-length interview, dealt so directly with such wide-ranging and controversial issues as Pope Benedict XVI does in Light of the World. Taken from a recent week-long series of interviews with veteran journalist Peter Seewald, this book tackles head-on some of the greatest issues facing the world of our time. Seewald poses such forthright questions to Pope Benedict as:

 

* What caused the clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church?

* Was there a "cover up"?

* Have you considered resigning?

* Does affirming the goodness of the human body mean a plea for "better sex"?

* Can there be a genuine dialogue with Islam?

* Should the Church rethink Catholic teaching on priestly celibacy, women priests, contraception, and same-sex relationships?....

[snip]

 

The Benedict XVI who emerges from these pages is a man of profound faith and intellect, combined with disarming simplicity, and willing to engage any issue frankly... "

 

 

It will be interesting to see just how determinedly the interviewer pursues those questions and just how "frankly" Ratzinger really does respond to those questions, given the ducking and weaving done in the past. Given that this Ignatius Press that is producing it is a Catholic publisher it sounds like it will be another whitewash.

[Rotten Ali 599]

<---- my money is on Antonio Cañizares Llovera of Spain.

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

<---- my money is on Antonio Cañizares Llovera of Spain.

 

Yes, he's meant to have a fairly strong chance as wellm after the "big 3" mentioned above. Apparently, other cardinals call him the "Little Ratzinger" because their policies are identical.

 

The one I can't fully fathom is Christoph Schonborn. He is also a contender but it is hard to fathom his sincerity. He apparently has very rigid conservative views but he is the only cardinal who has spoken out publically to condemn the child abuse. He has talked about the factions in the church and slammed the notorious Cardinal Sodano (who had, incidentally, close ties to Pinochet):

 

http://www.thetablet.co.uk/article/14678

 

This was unprecedented as one cardinal had never openly criticised another in the media before. Of course, the Pope then decided to discipline Schonborn, whilst he has done nothing to punish those involved in the child abuse cover-up:

 

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1002654.htm

 

 

To Schonborn's credit, despite his conservatism, he is also apparently "open to the use of condoms within marriage if one partner has AIDS" and has attacked the reintegration of that holocaust denying conservative bishop a few years ago but he has also made a lot of gaffes.

 

He is apparently becoming much more liberal about homosexuals too. Here is an article about his changing attitudes:

 

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentand...inal-schonborn/

 

He has also fostered ties with the Greek Orthodox Church but some critics say that this is just a matter of making them bend to the will of the Catholics, not a sincere dialogue as equals.

 

Hard to know if the bloke is sincere or not or if he is just playing factional games, attacking his opponents. Maybe he has strong factional backing if he is confident to launch these criticism. Any thoughts about this bloke?

 

 

The only other two cardinals who seem half-decent in my opinion are an old Italian bloke, Ennio Antonelli, and new cardinal, Laurent Pasinya, from the Congo.

 

Antonelli apparently hates the Vatican politics and is very estranged from the Curia there. He is regarded as a genial, smiling person who is actually very likeable. He is meant to be a moderate with a strong focus on social justice. He apparently believes that sexual issues are a personal matter for each individual. Based on that, hard to believe he has any chance but people seem to think he is still a contender.

 

The Congolese bloke, Pasinya, is the co-head of the Catholic anti-war group, Pax Christi and played an enormous role in ending the Congolese war and helping the country move from dictatorship to democracy, heading one chamber of government for a while as per info here:

 

http://www.thecompassnews.org/news/nation-...-cardinals.html

 

Obviously has strong political and diplomatic skills so, even if he has less chance being black African, as per discussion on Arinze earlier in this thread, he may have some chance.

 

******

 

A couple of ones with no chance of being elected also seem like comparatively decent people:

 

Jean-Louis Tauran (France) - outspoken critic of Iraq War and travelled around the world to trouble spots to aid in resolving conflict under John Paul Second. Ratzinger has sidelined him by making him the Vatican's archivist. Has faced conflict from other French cardinals and bishops, most of whom are ultra-conservative.

 

Lubomyr Husar (Ukrainian). Said by journalists to be a genuinely holy person.

 

Claudio Hummes (Brazilian). Said to be liberal on social justice issues but conservative on private morality. Strongly opposed Brazilian military regime.

 

Joseph Zen Ze-Kiun (Chinese, based in Hong Kong.) Strident critic of Chinese government, especially over Tianement Square massacre. Has called for universal suffrage in China. Has also organised protests against World Trade Organisation. Criticised by Vatican for making Church "too much like a political party(!!!)"

 

Kazimierz Ncyz (Polish) - Has called for Church to "purify" itself. Repeatedly refused to collaborate with communists. Helped to reform Polish Church a lot.

 

Nicolas Rodriguez (Dominican Republic) - stood up to military rulers. Publically accused them of siphoning money.

 

Jaime Alamino (Cuba) - former political prisoner and human rights medalist. Is as wary of American capitalism as he is of Cuban Communism. Fearful Cuba will become too capitalist when communism eventually falls.

 

Some tainted ones:

 

Giovanni Re (Italian.) This guy is just a Vatican power-broker but belongs to a faction that opposes Ratzinger. Don't know what form his opposition policies take or how sizeable his faction is.

 

Jorge Bergoglio (Argentine) - unlike other cardinals lives in very humble flat, not a palace or mansion. Uses public transport instead of chauffeur-driven limo. Very humble. Socially liberal. Unfortunately, rumours of links to Argentine Dirty War have hugely discredited him.

 

Godfried Danneels (Belgium.) - only real liberal cardinal at the moment, was open to reform on gay marriage, married priests, condoms, etc. Worked for anti-war movement. Opposed conservatives and showmen priests. Unfortunately, now discredted due to recording of him pressuring child abuse victim to remain silent:

 

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2010/0...or-sad-reading/

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11123004

 

Medardo Mazombwe (Zambia) - Bono's mate. Wants third world debt cancelled.

 

Oscar Maradiaga (Honduras) - Bono's other mate. Wants third world debt cancelled.

 

 

The other 100 or so cardinals are all mostly rigid conservatives and Machiavellian Vatican politicians, "curial law experts" and doddery academics.

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

<---- my money is on Antonio Cañizares Llovera of Spain.

 

Yes, he's meant to have a fairly strong chance as wellm after the "big 3" mentioned above. Apparently, other cardinals call him the "Little Ratzinger" because their policies are identical.

 

The one I can't fully fathom is Christoph Schonborn. He is also a contender but it is hard to fathom his sincerity. He apparently has very rigid conservative views but he is the only cardinal who has spoken out publically to condemn the child abuse. He has talked about the factions in the church and slammed the notorious Cardinal Sodano (who had, incidentally, close ties to Pinochet):

 

http://www.thetablet.co.uk/article/14678

 

This was unprecedented as one cardinal had never openly criticised another in the media before. Of course, the Pope then decided to discipline Schonborn, whilst he has done nothing to punish those involved in the child abuse cover-up:

 

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1002654.htm

 

 

To Schonborn's credit, despite his conservatism, he is also apparently "open to the use of condoms within marriage if one partner has AIDS" and has attacked the reintegration of that holocaust denying conservative bishop a few years ago but he has also made a lot of gaffes.

 

He is apparently becoming much more liberal about homosexuals too. Here is an article about his changing attitudes:

 

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentand...inal-schonborn/

 

He has also fostered ties with the Greek Orthodox Church but some critics say that this is just a matter of making them bend to the will of the Catholics, not a sincere dialogue as equals.

 

Hard to know if the bloke is sincere or not or if he is just playing factional games, attacking his opponents. Maybe he has strong factional backing if he is confident to launch these criticism. Any thoughts about this bloke?

 

 

The only other two cardinals who seem half-decent in my opinion are an old Italian bloke, Ennio Antonelli, and new cardinal, Laurent Pasinya, from the Congo.

 

Antonelli apparently hates the Vatican politics and is very estranged from the Curia there. He is regarded as a genial, smiling person who is actually very likeable. He is meant to be a moderate with a strong focus on social justice. He apparently believes that sexual issues are a personal matter for each individual. Based on that, hard to believe he has any chance but people seem to think he is still a contender.

 

The Congolese bloke, Pasinya, is the co-head of the Catholic anti-war group, Pax Christi and played an enormous role in ending the Congolese war and helping the country move from dictatorship to democracy, heading one chamber of government for a while as per info here:

 

http://www.thecompassnews.org/news/nation-...-cardinals.html

 

Obviously has strong political and diplomatic skills so, even if he has less chance being black African, as per discussion on Arinze earlier in this thread, he may have some chance.

 

******

 

A couple of ones with no chance of being elected also seem like comparatively decent people:

 

Jean-Louis Tauran (France) - outspoken critic of Iraq War and travelled around the world to trouble spots to aid in resolving conflict under John Paul Second. Ratzinger has sidelined him by making him the Vatican's archivist. Has faced conflict from other French cardinals and bishops, most of whom are ultra-conservative.

 

Lubomyr Husar (Ukrainian). Said by journalists to be a genuinely holy person.

 

Claudio Hummes (Brazilian). Said to be liberal on social justice issues but conservative on private morality. Strongly opposed Brazilian military regime.

 

Joseph Zen Ze-Kiun (Chinese, based in Hong Kong.) Strident critic of Chinese government, especially over Tianement Square massacre. Has called for universal suffrage in China. Has also organised protests against World Trade Organisation. Criticised by Vatican for making Church "too much like a political party(!!!)"

 

Kazimierz Ncyz (Polish) - Has called for Church to "purify" itself. Repeatedly refused to collaborate with communists. Helped to reform Polish Church a lot.

 

Nicolas Rodriguez (Dominican Republic) - stood up to military rulers. Publically accused them of siphoning money.

 

Jaime Alamino (Cuba) - former political prisoner and human rights medalist. Is as wary of American capitalism as he is of Cuban Communism. Fearful Cuba will become too capitalist when communism eventually falls.

 

Some tainted ones:

 

Giovanni Re (Italian.) This guy is just a Vatican power-broker but belongs to a faction that opposes Ratzinger. Don't know what form his opposition policies take or how sizeable his faction is.

 

Jorge Bergoglio (Argentine) - unlike other cardinals lives in very humble flat, not a palace or mansion. Uses public transport instead of chauffeur-driven limo. Very humble. Socially liberal. Unfortunately, rumours of links to Argentine Dirty War have hugely discredited him.

 

Godfried Danneels (Belgium.) - only real liberal cardinal at the moment, was open to reform on gay marriage, married priests, condoms, etc. Worked for anti-war movement. Opposed conservatives and showmen priests. Unfortunately, now discredted due to recording of him pressuring child abuse victim to remain silent:

 

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2010/0...or-sad-reading/

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11123004

 

Medardo Mazombwe (Zambia) - Bono's mate. Wants third world debt cancelled.

 

Oscar Maradiaga (Honduras) - Bono's other mate. Wants third world debt cancelled.

 

 

The other 100 or so cardinals are all mostly rigid conservatives and Machiavellian Vatican politicians, "curial law experts" and doddery academics.

 

 

Actually, as it turns out, Herr Ratzinger is in Spain at the moment. If he is able to do another foreign tour so soon after his UK trip, looks like there are no health problems for the bastard at the moment:

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101106/ap_on_re_eu/eu_pope

 

"Benedict made clear his distaste for Spain's liberal bent..." Rotten Ali, I wonder if that will affect Antonio Cañizares Llovera's chances, if Spain is considered to have become too liberal under his watch?

[our Sydney 11]

Damn those Spanish liberals, can't even do a proper inquisition these days. . . . . pass me the soft cusions!

Best regards

Syd

[Rotten Ali 599]

"Benedict made clear his distaste for Spain's liberal bent..." Rotten Ali, I wonder if that will affect Antonio Cañizares Llovera's chances, if Spain is considered to have become too liberal under his watch?

 

I don't think so - the whole world is going more liberal right now - the church is only following at a slower rate.

I say the Spanish guy because the swirl that started by having a Polish pope moved away from the Italian inner circle so that there was another chance for a West European Pope in Pope Ratz'. Now the push is push comes for a none european pope - Mexico, Peru, Brazil, Canada, Argentina & Honduras. Four of those counties are Spanish speaking and who of the europeans does that and at the same time can hold the central doctrine that Pope Ratz' has?

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

"Benedict made clear his distaste for Spain's liberal bent..." Rotten Ali, I wonder if that will affect Antonio Cañizares Llovera's chances, if Spain is considered to have become too liberal under his watch?

 

I don't think so - the whole world is going more liberal right now - the church is only following at a slower rate.

 

Don't know about that. They seem to have had a conservative backlash since the 1960s Vatican II conference. They seem to be going backwards rather than forwards slowly.

 

Interestingly, I just read a little more about one of the cardinals I mentioned above, Claudio Hummes. He apparently did a huge backlflip. When John Paul 2 gained power, he abandoned and distanced himself from all of his previous social work and started to tow a conservative personal morality line. "Under John Paul II, Hummes moved to the right, adopting a more traditional theological stance and distancing himself from political action. In July 2000, when a Brazilian priest suggested that condoms could be justified to fight AIDS, Hummes threatened disciplinary action."

 

I say the Spanish guy because the swirl that started by having a Polish pope moved away from the Italian inner circle so that there was another chance for a West European Pope in Pope Ratz'. Now the push is push comes for a none european pope - Mexico, Peru, Brazil, Canada, Argentina & Honduras. Four of those counties are Spanish speaking and who of the europeans does that and at the same time can hold the central doctrine that Pope Ratz' has?

 

Good reasoning. I hadn't thought of it like that. He could be a good compromise, appealing to the South Americans who want a Spanish-speaking Pope and the European conservatives who don't want power to leave that continent.

 

I guess the other factor will be if the cardinals want to continue directly on with Benedict-style policies, which is what this "Little Ratzinger" will give them. If they feel there is a need for a change of direction, he will have problems.

[Guest Pearl E. Gates]

Greetings Ladies and Gents

 

 

I can provide a bit of insight. I would be worried if Antonio Cañizares Llovera became pope. He is of that generation that grew up when the Church had close ties to General Franco's regime. He was born in 1945, so it depends where he sat. The Church started criticising the regime cautiously after Vatican 2, by which time he was already 20. It depends if he was still forming his own views about the world by that time or if he was set in his ways by then:

 

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-13069.html

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Spain#Under_Franco

 

Opus Dei is the other factor to consider. Spain is the birth place of that cult. Of course, not all Spanish priests are members but it is powerful there and has influence, making the church there quite rigid.

 

 

Of the other candidates discussed:

 

HUSAR - would be a good, genuine pope but has no chance. Forget about it.

 

ANTONELLI - yes, definitely best of the Italians. A caring, pastoral figure rather than an academic. Little chance because he is so estranged from the Vatican. His cool relationship with the powers that be probably means he is not implicated in the child abuse cover-up at all.

 

RAVASI - about to become a cardinal. Very popular in Italy because he has a weekly religious television show. He would probably be the best of the "favourites." Here is some information about him so you can make up your own minds:

 

http://ncronline.org/node/1016

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/artic...0541?&eng=y

 

OUELETT - started out moderate then became increasingly conservative as he considered Canada's Quiet Revolution a failure. He is a bit like Ratzinger in the way that he rejected the liberalism of the 1960s but still more moderate than the Panzer Pope. To his credit, he stuck to his position on some moral issues when other bishops caved in to popular opinion. Whether you agree with those opinions is another matter... Definitely a front-runner.

 

SCOLA - rigid academic. Definitely a front runner as he is very personable but his views are unwavering. There would be no dialogue or reform.

 

SCHONBORN - like the poster above, I don't know what to make of this chap. Does his outspokeness mean:

 

a. He is a clever politician and knows there is support behind him, allowing himself to state a position and differentiate himself from the herd?

b. He is just making a lot of gaffes?

c. He is speaking from conscience and has really come to be disgusted by the church's handling of child abuse, the homosexual issue and so on?

 

If answer to the above is c, he would make a great pope.

 

Others to REALLY fear who weren't mentioned before:

 

MEISNER - absolutely rigid German cardinal, far worse than Ratzinger. He decried a new stain glass window calling it "degenerate art", a term that is taboo in Germany because of association with Nazis. He has also banned liberal priests from talking at his parish and done other nasty things.

 

CIPRIAN-THORNE - a Peruvian Opus Dei cardinal who opposes human rights. He is pro-nationalism and pro-war.

 

DIAS - Indian but with links to Opus Dei and Argentine dirty war.

 

PELL - Australian. Has faced charges of child abuse cover-up and actually abusing children himself but was not found guilty. Climate change denier. Close links to Australian conservative politicians and hates Australian Greens environmental party. Accused of dragging Sydney Diocese back into dark ages. There has been an exodus of priests from his diocese to other parts of Oz to escape his draconian rule.

 

MARX - another rigid German, who excommunicated a priest for giving eucharist to Protestants.

 

KASPER - the tosser who called UK a third world country and was left out of the Pope's trip to the UK. Apparently he has bullied Anglicans for years in ecumenical "dialogue" too which was all about them making concessions to him.

 

VINGT-TROIS - uber-conservative Arch-bishop of Paris who won factional war against liberal reformers. Another terrible man.

 

***

 

Okay, so what you have to realise is that many of these cardinals have little pastoral experience actually caring for their congregations. Many are academics. Think of the Vatican as being like a university with all of the arrogant, rigid lecturers, hubris, politicking and ideological warfare. Then multiply that by a factor of ten.

 

That is why I favour Antonelli. He is removed from that scene and actually leads a pastoral church. In fact, it has been implied he hates the Vatican and the corruption there. If he is an honest, decent man, he may have little chance of being elected but there is a small chance if he is proposed as a compromise candidate. The powerful Italian voting bloc will want one of their own back in but the international cardinals may not want one of these Curia academics. Hence, an Italian who is not part of the Curia may be an attractive compromise. Also, if he is not part of that scene, there is less risk on the media finding dirt on him being involved in hiding the child abuse. Then again, if he really does hate Vatican politics, he might turn the role of Pope down if it were offered to him,

 

When all is said and done, I think the Panzer Pope still has another 5 years left in him. Like one of the people said above though, I would bet he will go quickly. he lacks the toughness of JP2 which would have been built up by all of the hardships he experienced under the Nazis and communists. Ratzinger will be around for a while so I don't think he will be a realistic option for Deathlist 2011 or even 2012.

[Guest Pearl E. Gates]

As for BERGOGLIO who was a front-runner last time:

 

****

The Argentine church has acknowledged its failure to challenge the military's anti-leftist repression, which according to human-rights groups left 30,000 people dead or "disappeared," including dozens of Catholic clergy and lay activists.

 

To the harshest critics, church leaders were not merely indifferent to the violence but complicit in it. They say that includes Bergoglio, 68, who led Argentina's Jesuits at the time. Such charges were revived after the death of Pope John Paul II, when Bergoglio was being mentioned as a possible successor.

 

Critics cite link to military

 

Writing in the Buenos Aires newspaper Pagina 12, leading journalist Horacio Verbitsky said Bergoglio's "relations with the military dictatorship three decades ago ... are a point against his chances" of someday becoming pope. Verbitsky suggested the beatification proposal was part of an attempt by Bergoglio "to whitewash his personal history."

 

SOURCE -- http://wwrn.org/articles/18239/

 

****

 

To think that guy was Ratzinger's main challenger and purportedly received the second highest number of votes.

 

 

Also found a SCHONBORN fan club online, like the old Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club site that used to be around: http://www.cardinalschonborn.com/

 

 

 

With what I said before, yes I don't think Ratzinger will die soon but you guys would look like tossers if you missed him, so you might as well leave him on there. It is a bit of a tradition to have the Pope and the Queen on these kinds of lists, isn't it?

 

 

By the way, DeathListerati, be careful not to risk the wrath of these guys - the Pope's self-appointed protectors:

 

http://protectthepope.com/

 

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Well, what do you know? It turns out there is going to be a new book coming out later this month in which a journalist confronts Herr Ratzinger.

 

 

"Never has a Pope, in a book-length interview, dealt so directly with such wide-ranging and controversial issues as Pope Benedict XVI does in Light of the World. Taken from a recent week-long series of interviews with veteran journalist Peter Seewald, this book tackles head-on some of the greatest issues facing the world of our time. Seewald poses such forthright questions to Pope Benedict as:

 

* What caused the clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church?

* Was there a "cover up"?

* Have you considered resigning?

* Does affirming the goodness of the human body mean a plea for "better sex"?

* Can there be a genuine dialogue with Islam?

* Should the Church rethink Catholic teaching on priestly celibacy, women priests, contraception, and same-sex relationships?....

[snip]

 

The Benedict XVI who emerges from these pages is a man of profound faith and intellect, combined with disarming simplicity, and willing to engage any issue frankly... "

 

 

It will be interesting to see just how determinedly the interviewer pursues those questions and just how "frankly" Ratzinger really does respond to those questions, given the ducking and weaving done in the past. Given that this Ignatius Press that is producing it is a Catholic publisher it sounds like it will be another whitewash.

 

BREAKING NEWS: this is rather momentous in Vatican terms. In the book, the Pope is softening his stance against condoms:

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/21/3072159.htm

 

"The use of condoms to stop the spread of AIDS may be justified in certain cases, Pope Benedict says in a new book that could herald the start of sea change in the Vatican's attitude to condoms."

 

Okay, so credit where it is due: it IS huge for a Pope to make even the slightest change in stance like that, especially for an old hardliner like him. This is possibly the biggest thing he has done in his tenure.

 

Might minimise the chances of famous Africans coming down with the disease, so less easy picks for DeathList, though!

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Well, what do you know? It turns out there is going to be a new book coming out later this month in which a journalist confronts Herr Ratzinger.

 

 

"Never has a Pope, in a book-length interview, dealt so directly with such wide-ranging and controversial issues as Pope Benedict XVI does in Light of the World. Taken from a recent week-long series of interviews with veteran journalist Peter Seewald, this book tackles head-on some of the greatest issues facing the world of our time. Seewald poses such forthright questions to Pope Benedict as:

 

* What caused the clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church?

* Was there a "cover up"?

* Have you considered resigning?

* Does affirming the goodness of the human body mean a plea for "better sex"?

* Can there be a genuine dialogue with Islam?

* Should the Church rethink Catholic teaching on priestly celibacy, women priests, contraception, and same-sex relationships?....

[snip]

 

The Benedict XVI who emerges from these pages is a man of profound faith and intellect, combined with disarming simplicity, and willing to engage any issue frankly... "

 

 

It will be interesting to see just how determinedly the interviewer pursues those questions and just how "frankly" Ratzinger really does respond to those questions, given the ducking and weaving done in the past. Given that this Ignatius Press that is producing it is a Catholic publisher it sounds like it will be another whitewash.

 

BREAKING NEWS: this is rather momentous in Vatican terms. In the book, the Pope is softening his stance against condoms:

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/21/3072159.htm

 

"The use of condoms to stop the spread of AIDS may be justified in certain cases, Pope Benedict says in a new book that could herald the start of sea change in the Vatican's attitude to condoms."

 

Okay, so credit where it is due: it IS huge for a Pope to make even the slightest change in stance like that, especially for an old hardliner like him. This is possibly the biggest thing he has done in his tenure.

 

Might minimise the chances of famous Africans coming down with the disease, so less easy picks for DeathList, though!

 

 

Okay, another article about the book. Perk up your ears, lads and lasses:

 

Seewald broaches the idea of resigning, which many of the Pope's critics called for when revelations about the abuse crisis peaked in April. Benedict was adamant in response: "When the danger is great one must not run away." But the 83-year old pontiff did say that, contrary to perceived papal tradition, Popes should be able to consider resignation. "If a Pope clearly realizes that he is no longer physically, psychologically, and spiritually capable of handling the duties of of his office, then he has a right and, under some circumstances, also an obligation to resign." Early on in the text, Benedict, who admits he does not get on an exercise bike set up for him, tells Seewald that "I also notice my forces are diminishing."

 

Source: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2032433,00.htm

[Windsor 2,143]

BREAKING NEWS: this is rather momentous in Vatican terms. In the book, the Pope is softening his stance against condoms:

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/21/3072159.htm

 

"The use of condoms to stop the spread of AIDS may be justified in certain cases, Pope Benedict says in a new book that could herald the start of sea change in the Vatican's attitude to condoms."

 

Okay, so credit where it is due: it IS huge for a Pope to make even the slightest change in stance like that, especially for an old hardliner like him. This is possibly the biggest thing he has done in his tenure.

 

Might minimise the chances of famous Africans coming down with the disease, so less easy picks for DeathList, though!

 

When you read what the Pope actually said, it is not really all that momentous.

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

BREAKING NEWS: this is rather momentous in Vatican terms. In the book, the Pope is softening his stance against condoms:

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/21/3072159.htm

 

"The use of condoms to stop the spread of AIDS may be justified in certain cases, Pope Benedict says in a new book that could herald the start of sea change in the Vatican's attitude to condoms."

 

Okay, so credit where it is due: it IS huge for a Pope to make even the slightest change in stance like that, especially for an old hardliner like him. This is possibly the biggest thing he has done in his tenure.

 

Might minimise the chances of famous Africans coming down with the disease, so less easy picks for DeathList, though!

 

When you read what the Pope actually said, it is not really all that momentous.

 

 

Don't know, old boy. Given that they move at a glacial pace, this u-turn, however slight, was damn near supersonic.

[Paul Bearer 5,651]

This is fun:

The Future and the Popes

 

The Future and the Popes

 

Around about 1139 a man called Saint Malachy O'Morgair (he was Irish) predicted Popes. Catholics have become increasingly interested in these predictions because the descriptions of Popes 109 and 110 match the pontificates of John Paul I and John Paul II and because there are only two more Popes on the list.

 

Predicted Pope 111 was described cryptically as "From the Glory of the Olive." A Catholic website owner can logically interpret this as meaning:

 

1. Because the olive branch is a symbol of peace then this Pope will be a man of peace. He'll be famous for it.

 

2. The prophecy refers to the Order of St. Benedict, because they have a well-known group within their order called the 'Olivetans.' This does not mean that this Pope will come from the Order of St. Benedict, but rather that he will take the name of Saint Benedict and will live in imitation of him.

 

3. He will take the name Pope Benedict XVI, in imitation of Saint Benedict and also of Pope Benedict XV. Pope Benedict XV liked peace, so will Pope Benedict XVI. Pope Benedict XV wasn't very good at getting peace, neither will Pope Benedict XVI be. WWI happened after Benedict XV's pontificate began. After the Pontificate of Benedict XVI, World War III will begin. For some reason it will be the Arabs' fault. They'll threaten the US, Europe and North Africa, they'll invade Europe and North Africa. God says so.

 

4. Pope Benedict XVI will be like Saint Benedict and Saint Benedict the Black (different Saints) Pope Benedict XVI will be a black man [whoops!] like Saint Benedict the Black. He will be a holy Pope [what else?], who reinforces the teaching of the Church in opposition to the errors of modern culture.

 

5. Pope Ben XVI is in scripture (if you squint). Pope Benedict XVI will suggest to the world that three booths be built in Jerusalem: a Temple, a Church, and a Mosque. He will suggest that the city of Jerusalem becomes a place of peace and of worship for all three religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. War breaks out amongst the Arab nations in 2009, great war in 2010. By 2040 we'll all be Catholics.

 

6. Pope Benedict XVI will die prior to, or at the very beginning of, World War III. Therefore, he will die in either 2009 or 2010. [That's authorative as far as DeathList is concerned]

I can't wait.

 

We only have about 6 weeks to go then.

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Okay, another article about the book. Perk up your ears, lads and lasses:

 

Seewald broaches the idea of resigning, which many of the Pope's critics called for when revelations about the abuse crisis peaked in April. Benedict was adamant in response: "When the danger is great one must not run away." But the 83-year old pontiff did say that, contrary to perceived papal tradition, Popes should be able to consider resignation. "If a Pope clearly realizes that he is no longer physically, psychologically, and spiritually capable of handling the duties of of his office, then he has a right and, under some circumstances, also an obligation to resign." Early on in the text, Benedict, who admits he does not get on an exercise bike set up for him, tells Seewald that "I also notice my forces are diminishing."

 

Source: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2032433,00.htm

 

Here are more detailed quotes. Ratzinger continues to tease us:

 

****

The pope spoke candidly of his age and health, saying his schedule of meetings and trips "really overtaxes an 83-year-old man."

 

"I trust that our dear Lord will give me as much strength as I need to be able to do what is necessary. But I also notice that my forces are diminishing," he said.

 

The pope laughed when Seewald suggested that he looked good enough to be a fitness trainer [ed: ] , and said he has to conserve energy during his busy days. Asked whether he uses an exercise bicycle a doctor had given him, the pope replied: "No, I don't get to it at all -- and don't need it at the moment, thank God."

****

Source: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1004796.htm

 

 

By the way, a random bit of trivia I just learned is that, should he dodge the prophecy above and survive 2010, on Feb 29th 2012 (yes, Leap Year Day), Ratzinger will pass JP2 and become the 6th oldest pope of all time. (The oldest one was Leo XIII, who lived to 93 and was, in fact, the only pope to reach his 90s.)

[Windsor 2,143]

This is fun:

The Future and the Popes

 

The Future and the Popes

 

Around about 1139 a man called Saint Malachy O'Morgair (he was Irish) predicted Popes. Catholics have become increasingly interested in these predictions because the descriptions of Popes 109 and 110 match the pontificates of John Paul I and John Paul II and because there are only two more Popes on the list.

 

Predicted Pope 111 was described cryptically as "From the Glory of the Olive." A Catholic website owner can logically interpret this as meaning:

 

1. Because the olive branch is a symbol of peace then this Pope will be a man of peace. He'll be famous for it.

 

2. The prophecy refers to the Order of St. Benedict, because they have a well-known group within their order called the 'Olivetans.' This does not mean that this Pope will come from the Order of St. Benedict, but rather that he will take the name of Saint Benedict and will live in imitation of him.

 

3. He will take the name Pope Benedict XVI, in imitation of Saint Benedict and also of Pope Benedict XV. Pope Benedict XV liked peace, so will Pope Benedict XVI. Pope Benedict XV wasn't very good at getting peace, neither will Pope Benedict XVI be. WWI happened after Benedict XV's pontificate began. After the Pontificate of Benedict XVI, World War III will begin. For some reason it will be the Arabs' fault. They'll threaten the US, Europe and North Africa, they'll invade Europe and North Africa. God says so.

 

4. Pope Benedict XVI will be like Saint Benedict and Saint Benedict the Black (different Saints) Pope Benedict XVI will be a black man [whoops!] like Saint Benedict the Black. He will be a holy Pope [what else?], who reinforces the teaching of the Church in opposition to the errors of modern culture.

 

5. Pope Ben XVI is in scripture (if you squint). Pope Benedict XVI will suggest to the world that three booths be built in Jerusalem: a Temple, a Church, and a Mosque. He will suggest that the city of Jerusalem becomes a place of peace and of worship for all three religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. War breaks out amongst the Arab nations in 2009, great war in 2010. By 2040 we'll all be Catholics.

 

6. Pope Benedict XVI will die prior to, or at the very beginning of, World War III. Therefore, he will die in either 2009 or 2010. [That's authorative as far as DeathList is concerned]

I can't wait.

 

We only have about 6 weeks to go then.

 

I thought he was supposed to die in 2012...the College of Cardinals then elect a black Pope...the world then ends...

Can't remember who was spouting that garbage (not including myself).

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Yet another article:

 

 

"Benedict XVI's stamina is extraordinary; for his age, he is remarkable. But he is tired, and the grace of office does not defeat the march of time. The word in Rome is that there is a strong likelihood that this consistory has created the College that will elect the Pope's successor."

 

SOURCE: http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/entry....p;entry_id=3573

 

So, since they have a new consistory every few years, do they expect Ratzinger to be dead fairly soon after all?

[Windsor 2,143]

Yet another article:

 

 

"Benedict XVI's stamina is extraordinary; for his age, he is remarkable. But he is tired, and the grace of office does not defeat the march of time. The word in Rome is that there is a strong likelihood that this consistory has created the College that will elect the Pope's successor."

 

SOURCE: http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/entry....p;entry_id=3573

 

So, since they have a new consistory every few years, do they expect Ratzinger to be dead fairly soon after all?

 

I think most 83 year olds are expected to die 'soon'. He could die in his sleep tonight, or he could live to his 90th birthday.

Procedures were in place for the Queen Mother's funeral for decades before she finally snuffed it.

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Yet another article:

 

 

"Benedict XVI's stamina is extraordinary; for his age, he is remarkable. But he is tired, and the grace of office does not defeat the march of time. The word in Rome is that there is a strong likelihood that this consistory has created the College that will elect the Pope's successor."

 

SOURCE: http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/entry....p;entry_id=3573

 

So, since they have a new consistory every few years, do they expect Ratzinger to be dead fairly soon after all?

 

I think most 83 year olds are expected to die 'soon'. He could die in his sleep tonight, or he could live to his 90th birthday.

Procedures were in place for the Queen Mother's funeral for decades before she finally snuffed it.

 

 

Indeed but "The word in Rome" could mean the cardinals know something about the old boy's health that we don't and gossip is leaking out... Could just be idle speculation, though!

 

 

If that article has any substance and it is indeed true that the cardinals want a European but non-Italian pope ("the next Pope is likely to be a European... more likely to be from outside Italy"), I would say Rotten Ali's pick of the Spaniard Antonio Cañizares Llovera is firming up to be the favourite, especially if "the next pope will want to see through this project, building on Benedict XVI's project of equipping the Church to confront the new rationalism which is seeking to constrict and in some cases to banish Catholicism from the public sphere."

 

Since Llovera is nicknamed "Little Ratzinger" because they have such similar outlooks, the cardinals may look upon him in an especially favourable light if they want someone to continue these policies without a change of course.

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Just a few more new articles before I bore you all to tears (stories are coming in thick and fast at the moment):

 

****

Vatican government is a 'train wreck': Experts

 

"The papacy is adrift and has been for a long time...(It is) a papacy defined by its train wrecks.

 

Allen quoted a favorite Italian newspaper headline printed after the Vatican took 19 days to debunk a false rumor: "The Vatican denies everything. No one believes it."

 

Thus the irony.

 

When Ratzinger was elected pope, some in the media, including USA TODAY revived the image of him as John Paul II's enforcer, as the Rottweiler. Said Weigel:

 

It turns out he's not a Rottweiler after all. People thought he would dramatically reform the Roman curia and that turns out to be an inadequate expectation. I think he thought he would die soon, so he would focus on what he knew best and leave the institutional rebuilding to the next guy."

 

Source: http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2010/...rain-wreck.html

 

****

Does the next Pope need to be a CEO who can reform the Curia?

 

According to Weigel, “the single biggest management problem” in the Church today is the inability to sack bad bishops. People expected Pope Benedict to be a managerial Rottweiler and he hasn’t been.

 

Both commentators, according to Cathy Lynn Grossman, said that the Pope has deferred the crucial task of reforming the Curia to his successor.... While Benedict seems likely to be pope for years to come, what qualities would you want to see in his successor? Does the Church need a theologian with a CEO set of skills?

 

Source: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentand...form-the-curia/

 

 

****

 

 

That's it. I am going to take a break for a while and leave you all in peace so you don't think I am an obsessive nutter . With that article above saying that they think he will go soon and this one saying he is likely to be pope for years to come, sounds like these Pope-watchers are about as bad at guessing deaths as we are!

[Windsor 2,143]

Trust you to take a break when you did!

 

Rumours are emerging that the Pope may well have farted this morning as he ate breakfast.

More details are to follow.