Doth Death Absolve Us?

[Canadian Paul 97]

So today I found out that a person whom I had a noted dispassion for was in a near-fatal car accident over the holidays. Although I can't think of much that I actually liked about her (but a lot that I dislike comes to mind), I still feel sad that she was in such a terrible accident. This is natural. She wasn't out molesting children, she wasn't out murdering puppies, she didn't even rob liquor stores. In my opinion, however, she was not a very good person, doing some things that I absolutely don't agree with to get her way, acting smugly and undercutting the nature and morals of student council. Though in my angrier moments, I had said that she deserved to be hit by a bus, in reality of course she'd done nothing so horrible that she'd deserve that, or what actually happened to her. I'm not going to go around telling everyone what a wonderful person she is, but I still feel sad. This reminded me of something that happened a year ago, however, that was much more of a quandary.

 

The story basically goes like this. So there was this girl that I had met a few times who was driving drunk down the wrong side of the road and hit a truck. She was killed, but so were both the people in the oncoming truck, burned beyond recognition. There's no question that she killed two people. Yet because she died in the accident as well, everyone was talking about what a wonderful person she was. So I thought, what if the other two had died, but she had lived? She'd be hated, loathed, despised, for being so irresponsible that she cost two innocent young people their lives. So does death absolve us?

 

We feel sorry for people who died, and rightly so, but where do we draw the line? We don't feel bad that Pinochet, Botha or Hitler are gone. We don't weep for suicide bombers; though we may be saddened by their circumstances, it's not something we can easily justify. Is it a legal definition? A suicide bomber intends to commit murder, a drunk driver has no intention to kill people, so it's only manslaughter. Is that the difference? One might argue, however, that the average drunk driver knows (at least before consuming) that driving drunk could easily lead to fatalities. Intent seems to be the key. If instead she had knifed two people and then had been hit by a truck, there'd be no sympathy.

 

I'm not saying that people should go around telling people what a terrible person she was for driving drunk, but what about the families of the two people who died? How come their grief and upsetness are never covered? Would we have felt grief for the driver if she had killed two innocents and lived? Probably not. Yet her death seems to absolve her.

 

Of course, I keep my mouth shut to avoid being insensitive, but a person who killed two innocent people does not sit in my good book.

[Banshees Scream 110]

Canadian Paul, I take your example and say 'If a woman killed two truck drivers and lost her life as well' You ask where is the sympathy? It is everywhere. Nobody is hated and nobody wins. It is a tragedy and learning to accept it through your beliefs and slowly taking it in is all that can be done. Now lets say the woman lives through the car accident, but still kills the two guys in the car. The woman could be looked at as a monster. A careless pathetic human being, but depending on how the faimly takes it, and depending on the incident itself is all that could determine such an outcome. If you hated the survivor I would say, 'Put yourself in her shoes?' And the next question I would ask is 'Have you ever driven drunk once in your life?'

If you have, your just like this woman, only you got lucky.

[BrunoBrimley 86]

Death even if and when it is done through inappropriate behavvior always has more importance than the injuries sustained by the living. Think of it this way Paulie, if we get all emotional and choked up when the person is in an accident how much emotion will we have left to display when they finally croak?

[Banshees Scream 110]

Another question is 'Does Death Absolve Us?' I would comment yes. From the life you lived on earth. If you are free any further it gets very complicated

[Canadian Paul 97]

Canadian Paul, I take your example and say 'If a woman killed two truck drivers and lost her life as well' You ask where is the sympathy? It is everywhere. Nobody is hated and nobody wins. It is a tragedy and learning to accept it through your beliefs and slowly taking it in is all that can be done. Now lets say the woman lives through the car accident, but still kills the two guys in the car. The woman could be looked at as a monster. A careless pathetic human being, but depending on how the faimly takes it, and depending on the incident itself is all that could determine such an outcome. If you hated the survivor I would say, 'Put yourself in her shoes?' And the next question I would ask is 'Have you ever driven drunk once in your life?'

If you have, your just like this woman, only you got lucky.

 

(Mod deleted the above post^' (Forgot to log in)

 

Interesting thoughts BS, the idea of neutrality in morality. Death doesn't absolve us, but can cancel out a certain amount of bad deeds, with intention as a large factor in determining where that line is.

 

And to answer your question, no, I've never driven drunk. I'm a terrible driver sober, and thought of driving drunk scares the piss out of me. I have even, on at least one occasion, helped other physically restrain someone who was planning on driving drunk, so hopefully there's no hypocrisies involved.

[Kain 0]

Hey CP, read your stuff and thought about it. Then thought some more. And some more. Decided it was an interesting discussion / bit of soul searching. Not sure I got anywhere towards my own opinion / answers. I guess everyone will have answers that they reconcile with themselves and nobody can have the definitive answers.

Just thought I'd let you know I thought it was interesting - maybe something to do with DL and the unpredictability of death.

[Twelvetrees 10]

Death does not absolve us, but it does tend to neutralize us.

 

De mortuis nisi nil bonum? It's merely a way of covering over and moving on. There are many reasons why people will be seen to say positive things at such times - guilt, sympathy with family and friends, conformity to accepted norms - whatever.

 

I am reminded of the actions of the then Mayor of Stuttgart, Manfred (son of Erwin) Rommel, in allowing the burial of three Red Army Faction (Baader-Meinhof) members in the public Waldfriedhof Cemetery in 1977. Despite massive opposition to his actions, Rommel said "There should be no enmity after death". I tend to agree with him. After all, bad-mouthing a corpse is a rather pointless activity at the best of times.

[Madame Defarge 21]

Death does not absolve us, but it does tend to neutralize us.

 

De mortuis nisi nil bonum? It's merely a way of covering over and moving on. There are many reasons why people will be seen to say positive things at such times - guilt, sympathy with family and friends, conformity to accepted norms - whatever.

 

I am reminded of the actions of the then Mayor of Stuttgart, Manfred (son of Erwin) Rommel, in allowing the burial of three Red Army Faction (Baader-Meinhof) members in the public Waldfriedhof Cemetery in 1977. Despite massive opposition to his actions, Rommel said "There should be no enmity after death". I tend to agree with him. After all, bad-mouthing a corpse is a rather pointless activity at the best of times.

 

Francois Villon was probably a better poet than he was a thief, since he did a more than a bit of time

in the slammer and once faced the gallows prompting him to write The Ballade of the Hanged in which he asked

to be forgiven after death.

[Tempus Fugit 214]

.

[Anubis the Jackal 77]

There was once this lad. He was a weapons-grade arse-wit who liked amateur dramatics and couldn't get laid in a Bangkok brothel with his wang wrapped in £50 notes. One night, his car went arse over tit, nearly taking out another car in the other lane, killing him (I hope) instantly. I was asked to go to the funeral, but declined on the grounds that I really couldn't stand the snivelling sh*t, which is a fair point I feel. I didn't miss much apparently, his favourite song was Don Macleans 'American Pie' which should be erased from the face of the earth.

 

His father was a copper who wrote a long sanctimonious piece in the local rag about how unfair it was that his wonderful, law-abiding kid had been taken from us and yet criminals walk the streets blah, blah, blah.

 

It was only at the inquest into his death that it was revealed that the lad was a pissed as a fart at the time of the crash, and very nearly killed two totally innocent people in the other car.

 

I'm not sure what the point is of all this, but it's nearly relevant to the thread which is good enough for me.

[Godot 149]

No relevance to the thread Anubis, but I just wanted to congratulate you on your excellent choice of avatar.

 

In as far as the thread question goes: no, death does not absolve us. It ends a life. I'm not sure the word has much meaning outside religious circles. In as much as it does, absolution is something granted by others to a third party. It cannot be granted by death

[TLC 9]

Absolve us? No.

 

Dissolve us? Yep, or certainly the bits that count.

 

Weak pun aside, if you want absolution for whatever it is you think you need it for, the best chance you'll have is whilst still alive I should think.

 

On balance, I'd rather have absinthe. Should also help get the dissolving process under way early.

[Real Madron 6]

i think its strange that if an aquaintance was a petty thief, you might think hes a bit of a loser, but in death you look back and sort of say.. 'haha remember he used to steal stuff from hotel rooms etc - what a joker!'

just because he's dead its sorta ok?

[Canadian Paul 97]

Today, in my email, I received notice that Donald Tuzin, anthropologist and UCSD professor died on April 15th. When most people mentioned Tuzin at UCSD, aside from noting that he wrote a textbook which he then made mandatory for a class that at least 1/6th of the students at the university are forced to take, they talked about an oft-spread story. While I'm not certain of its veracity, it basically goes that after he wrote his book on the Ilahita Arapesh Indians and the way their "primitive" society functioned, he got the women to rebel against the heavily patriarchal society and essentially brought the village down in civil war.

 

My own personal experience with the man came my Freshman Year of college, during my first ever final exam, on a Monday where I had two other exams afterwards. He had been my professor all quarter and, while I found him amusing at times, he was also difficult to approach and rather unfriendly in office hours. Anyhow, minding my own business and taking the final, I catch him out of the corner of my eye running up the stairs. He points to me and, like an umpire, yells at me, in front of the whole silent test taking class and tells me to get out of the room. Outside, he says "I know you were cheating, but I can't prove it. If I could, you'd be so out of it." I'm scared shitless of course, not the least of which is because he's very tall, very loud and missing a lot of teeth. Not to mention, by the way, that I most certainly was not cheating, yet I know that my denial sounds like the frightened ramblings of a guilty man. So, shaking, he yells at me a bit more and tells me to sit in my seat and finish the test.

 

I was nervous wreck for my whole college career when it came to test time. I always sat hunkered down in my seat and closed my eyes whenever I looked away from my paper. I was absolutely paranoid, even though I later received a professional "apology" from him. Thought I don't think it had any physical effect on test scores, the psychological battering was enough to make me hate the man.

 

It's strange. A man I feared so much, about whom I was so bitter, now lies dead. He was there at that moment in my life, a memory burned into my brain, clearer than most that I have, and now he's nothing more than a whisper in time. I'd never really told the story after the day that it happened, because the memory was fearsome. I felt this was the best place to get it off my chest, whether or not anyone out there cares. And now that he's dead, I no longer feel bitterness or hatred. I feel like I'll be able to breathe easily again during tests (too bad undergrad is over).

 

My conclusions on the topic of this thread, by the way, is that I guess it comes down to relativity in part, and who's doing the "absolution" after death. Families and friends forgive more than most people, and they also produce the obituaries and memorials. Everyone is despised by some, loved by others and somewhere in the middle for the most. Mother Teresa had her detractors and Hitler had his Eva Braun. We may be hated relative to the standards of a person, or even a society, but not to all. Death does not absolve us, perhaps, but it does tend to silence our critics.

[Harvester Of Souls 40]

Death absolves us because there is no way you can be held accountable for anything you've ever done. It's the final two fingers to the world of the living.

[maryportfuncity 10,657]

Absolve - Impossible

 

Dissolve - Sometimes

[Harvester Of Souls 40]

Absolve - Impossible

Why?

[To die for 3]

Nope - where there's blame, there's a claim

[Godot 149]

Absolve - Impossible

 

Dissolve - Sometimes

Er.. that's been done MPFC a few posts back by TLC. Get a grip.

[maryportfuncity 10,657]

Absolve us? No.

 

Dissolve us? Yep, or certainly the bits that count.

 

Weak pun aside, if you want absolution for whatever it is you think you need it for, the best chance you'll have is whilst still alive I should think.

 

On balance, I'd rather have absinthe. Should also help get the dissolving process under way early.

 

I was, sort of, elaborating on TLC's view. He says 'no' for absolving, I said impossible which might suggest significantly different theological views. Also, we don't all dissolve in death, cremation, enemy RPGs and other interventions see off this process and divert us into - for example - vapourisation.

 

Grim all round, really. Re the second point, I refer you to the grisly and growing collection of linked videos available on the F1 thread.

[Godot 149]

Well maybe I went to the wrong Sunday school but I always thought that if you'd been bad and you died you went to Hell so that's not absolution. I suppose you might dissolve in Hell but I haven't seen that suggested in the Bible not that I've read very much of it. I understand that fire is the thing so there'd be some ashes. If we've been good we don't need to be absolved so all round the question doesn't make much sense.

 

As a Protestant I must work on the basis that absolution isn't an option. We don't get all the confessional stuff that constitutes the soft underbelly of Catholicism. You sin, you live with it and die with it.

[Lord Fellatio Nelson 6,219]

A very interesting thread. Im sitting here at 1.46 am, pissed as a fart,to the point where the screen is blurred, and Im thinking "Who gives a f**k"?

Very few people on this planet have lived sinless lives, pointless worrying about it, we will all have to answer to our rank stupidity when we move to the next level.

I think we worry too much about what people think of us in life, which gets you theorising as to how you feel you will be percieved in death.

Only the almighty can give us absolution.

I think I need to go and lay down ...........................................................

[Harvester Of Souls 40]

Well maybe I went to the wrong Sunday school but I always thought that if you'd been bad and you died you went to Hell so that's not absolution. I suppose you might dissolve in Hell but I haven't seen that suggested in the Bible not that I've read very much of it. I understand that fire is the thing so there'd be some ashes. If we've been good we don't need to be absolved so all round the question doesn't make much sense.

 

As a Protestant I must work on the basis that absolution isn't an option. We don't get all the confessional stuff that constitutes the soft underbelly of Catholicism. You sin, you live with it and die with it.

God doesn't exist so all concept of sin is false.

 

Sh*t happens. You die. Sh*t can't happen anymore.

[To die for 3]

Well maybe I went to the wrong Sunday school but I always thought that if you'd been bad and you died you went to Hell so that's not absolution. I suppose you might dissolve in Hell but I haven't seen that suggested in the Bible not that I've read very much of it. I understand that fire is the thing so there'd be some ashes. If we've been good we don't need to be absolved so all round the question doesn't make much sense.

 

As a Protestant I must work on the basis that absolution isn't an option. We don't get all the confessional stuff that constitutes the soft underbelly of Catholicism. You sin, you live with it and die with it.

God doesn't exist so all concept of sin is false.

 

Sh*t happens. You die. Sh*t can't happen anymore.

Sin doesn't just apply to religion (I looked it up), the world would be a scary place if no one believed in the concept of sin.

Equally this definition of absolution "release from consequences, obligations, or penalties" has me agreeing with HoS.

[Banshees Scream 110]

God doesn't exist so all concept of sin is false.

 

Sh*t happens. You die. Sh*t can't happen anymore.

 

Talking scientifically if you believe there is no conscious god that is safely a fair opinion. Although any wack job would know that something unexplained played a role in our being. I think Science is stoned with the idea of certain seeds of life drifting in from some part of the universe and landing here. Personally I don't exclude this theory, I just have trouble putting the pieces together. My first question would be 'from where?' and my second question would be 'how?' I mean in regards to that two thousand year old book it never said how the almighty creator did things. 'Correct me if I'm wrong!? So my problem with the origin of life all together is something has got to come from something, I don't know if it's written in black marker but that's my physics. The only conclusion I can project is that nothing has started, and at the same time nothing has ended. In the prime zone of the universe time reacts differently then time in this solar system. I don't like your negative response and as I've mentioned in one of my recent posts 'sh*t happens' it is a quote I've said at times in my life. But overall there is a light at the end of every dark tunnel, and time is the greatest medication on this earth. I don't care what your shrink gives you, if you can believe in yourself you got something going.