Teddy 21 Posted June 12, 2005 Could be a tie. I think Strikje may well loose out as their posting is at least understandable, albeit short. Thats the problem with images, as opposed to random letter - at least there is something comprehensible there (well, modern art excepted) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Spacecowboy_J Posted June 23, 2005 The image is a sticker/pin/t-shirt motive hugely popular among more left-leaning youths in Austria .. "gegen Nazis" means "against Nazis" One thing I didn't realise though was that one could be an intelligence officer of the Wehrmacht and not be a member of the Nazi party, or as you've so Tuetonically put it, the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. I didn't say he wasn't a member. Just that it's a bit hard to say in retrospective just how "willing" a member he was, a lot of membership things in the third reich happened very "automatically" .. in Waldheim's case, it's especially hard to tell just what he did voluntarily and what not, since he's been lying so bloody much that you just can't know which of his lies were big lies and which ones were small lies. With all real investigations leading to the result that there aren't many records left on just what he was doing during the Second World war, the only source of information left is his word. --> there is no source of information left. We'll never know if he was a "real" nazi or a freeloader OWhat I gather from what you're trying to say is: a ) He was probably a Nazi; b ) Austrians don't care; and c ) It's alright though, I'm not Austrian. no, No, NO. He was probably a Nazi? Yes. Austrians don't care? Not really. Most Austrians that are still pro-Waldheim - and there aren't many of those left, we *are* speaking about one election that happened a generation ago after all - don't claim they don't care he was a Nazi .. they claim that he wasn't a Nazi, there IS a difference. As terrible as denial about things as horrid as these are .. it does show that people consider said thing something really, really BAD. If your average Austrian was a full-blown Nazi .. he would hardly be denying the crimes of the past to himself. Please note, it's been 60 years since the Second World War, the overwhelming majority of the people that were old enough to be Nazis by the end of the war are DEAD. It's not about denial about one's own actions .. it's about things people don't want to believe about their ancestors and those nice old family members they remember. It's not saying "oh, the things that happened were damned fine" .. it's saying "oh, no, they were such nice people, they could have never done such a thing" .. which SUCKS big time, but does NOT mean that people believe that National socialism is a great thing. It's like .. imagine you find out a deceased relative was a mass-murderer .. and you don't want to believe it. That doesn't make you a mass-murderer yourself yet. as for c), that I think it's alright .. bloody hell not. I'm not saying the Austrian attitude of denial is OK at any rate, it's not even a 20th OK. I most certainly don't let Austrians get away with it - especially since it's been generations since these things, and the people I have contact with now had NO control over what happened then, it's not like personal error would have to be admitted - I'm just saying that there is a difference between being in denial over something and thinking that something's quite a fine thing. That and .. I don't think Waldheim would get elected again now. Austrians have elected plenty of creeps since, but attitudes towards the whole denial thingy HAVE changed in recent years. I don't know what the reason is, maybe it's that more time has passed and people can detach themselves from what happened then better and think about things without feeling targeted personally, maybe it's that the modern school cirriculums forbid skippid the part about Austria's blame in the happenings from then, maybe it's that most school classes in Austria nowadays make field trips to Mauthausen, the main Austrian concentration camp, at some point to get kids to see the horrors of the holocaust as close up as it really was .. and maybe it's that after getting the black spot on its image that Austria got for electing Waldheim, people started thinking about things a bit more .. I really don't know. But in recent years, if any person of fame gets put in any connection with National Socialism .. his image will drop a LOT more than Waldheim's did in the old days. Some Austrians still play the denial game, yeah .. but it's harmless in the modern day and age really compared to the denial games I've heard people play in other parts of the world. Try speaking to a Russian about the crimes of Stalinism. Try speaking to an American about war crimes in Vietnam. Try speaking to a Serbian about Srebrenica. Try speaking to a Japanese about World War Two before the dropping of the atom bombs. Try speaking to a Brit about the Dresden bombing. THAT, my friend, is real denial on a scale that has luckily gone out of fashion for most people in Austria. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tuber Mirum 119 Posted June 23, 2005 That Mr. Haider (seen here after a shave) is a bit of a dodgy character. And still quite popular with the Austrian voters. I believe most of his family's land belonged to others before the war, who had it disposessed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Spacecowboy_J Posted June 24, 2005 That Mr. Haider (seen here after a shave) is a bit of a dodgy character. And still quite popular with the Austrian voters. I believe most of his family's land belonged to others before the war, who had it disposessed. I agree fully on Haider, though his popularity is not what it used to be. I think polls show his party around 4% or so, which is under the legal limit to enter parliament - though who knows what will before the next election. Estimates here have the tendency to get blown into something completely uncomprehendible come election. How he ever got into the 20% size category is truely beyond me. I'm not sure I would place it on National Socialist revisting though - most of his followers, once again did the Austrian thing and believed him to be "not as bad as he's been made up to be" .. and the biggest chunk of the votes he ever got were "protest votes" - people that didn't want to vote either for the social democrats or for the conservatives, the two parties that had been running the country for a quite long time at the time. And the positive side of such an election result is that with the HUGE movement there was behind haider .. 20% that were made to vote for him at the height of his power left 80% of the population who would mostly never, ever, EVER dream of voting for a jerk like him. Most conservatives were NOT happy with Wolfgang Schüssel, head of the conservative party and now chancellor of Austria for going into a coalition with Haider. Ironically though, when the next election came, this boosted Schüssel's votes to 1 1/2 of what they had been in the last election .. since people wanted to "give him the power to reign without Haider", or so the argument was. And I keep hearing people claim that they voted for Haider but were shocked when his party joined the goverment since they didn't want to do that, they just wanted to weaken the goverment. Heh .. yeah, great way to vote. People are too stupid for democracy. His party has split after getting completely horrid election results now that his party has lost the protest votes .. my hope is that the fractions will all stay small enough that none of them will enter the parliament come the elections next year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gunjaman5000 30 Posted June 24, 2005 Some Austrians still play the denial game, yeah .. but it's harmless in the modern day and age really compared to the denial games I've heard people play in other parts of the world. Try speaking to a Russian about the crimes of Stalinism. Try speaking to an American about war crimes in Vietnam. Try speaking to a Serbian about Srebrenica. Try speaking to a Japanese about World War Two before the dropping of the atom bombs. Try speaking to a Brit about the Dresden bombing. THAT, my friend, is real denial on a scale that has luckily gone out of fashion for most people in Austria. For most people or only the most famous Austrian? I'll be baack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Spacecowboy_J Posted June 24, 2005 Some Austrians still play the denial game, yeah .. but it's harmless in the modern day and age really compared to the denial games I've heard people play in other parts of the world. Try speaking to a Russian about the crimes of Stalinism. Try speaking to an American about war crimes in Vietnam. Try speaking to a Serbian about Srebrenica. Try speaking to a Japanese about World War Two before the dropping of the atom bombs. Try speaking to a Brit about the Dresden bombing. THAT, my friend, is real denial on a scale that has luckily gone out of fashion for most people in Austria. For most people or only the most famous Austrian? I'll be baack He has lost a LOT of popularity here due to his political career here. Most monuments named after him are being renamed, he will probably lose his Austrian citizenship and he no longer is getting any advertisment contracts or anything similar here. Sorry .. Schwarzenegger is the American's "problem" .. Austrians didn't vote him, Americans did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gunjaman5000 30 Posted August 18, 2005 Yugoslavia 1943. Waldheim, centre. Definitely not a Nazi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SERBIAN Posted August 24, 2005 MY grandfather saved him from the russian soldiers!Grandpa was in Yugoslav partisans security. Russians wanted to kill him, my grandpa pushed him toward the american soldiers. We still have the Waldheim's binocular at home.It was the only way to say thanks to the person that saved him. Strange story! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VileBody 11 Posted September 27, 2005 Waldheim was a member of the Association of Nazi Students, the SA (the Brownshirts) and the SA Cavalry Troop - before the war. These were specifically Nazi organisations dedicted to its ideology. This is not the same as "joining the Nazi Party, which everyone did". Incidentally, from memory I believe about a third of the German population managed to resist even that alluring temptation without material consequences. The good Lieutenant was a junior staff officer (a translator) in Yugoslavia and was undoubtedly fully aware of numerous atrocities committed in the (admittedly very brutal) war with Tito's partisans. Worse, he would have been fully aware of the liquidation of the Salonika Jews. In 1986, when word of his record came out, he claimed that he had not heard of any misdeeds by the German armed forces in the Balkans or Greece until he read the newspaper accounts published during the election campaign. The man was not a Mengele or a Hoess - he was a grubby little mediocrity-on-the-make with an infinitely accomodating conscience. Fortunately for Hitler, both Germany and Austria had enough Waldheims to run the Nazi regime for 12 years without any significant internal opposition. I hope he and the rest of them rot in Hell. Waldheim won the Presidency in 1986 with the support of nearly half of the Austrian electorate in the first round. This was not something that happened "a long time ago", or "to another generation". Most of those voters are still alive and chose to ignore Waldheim's past. Many, I would guess, did not actually give a damn and recognised the comparable behaviour of themselves or friends and relations. I hope that if I were Austrian I'd have the humility to think about the craven and morally bankrupt political behaviour my country had inflicted on the world in the last hundred years, which includes the Serbian Ultimatum of 1914 (the real trigger of WW1); producing and then welcoming Adolf Hitler; and electing a proven Nazi-sympathiser as president. I hope I'd have the decency to keep my self-pitying opinions to myself and not come on here bleating about it all being in the past. You could have shown that it was in 1986. Instead you made him head of state. What a great country. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wozza 0 Posted September 28, 2005 Dr Kurt Waldheim, former president of Austria and secretary-general of the United Nations was NOT and never was a Nazi. He's 87 and on his way out soon... He's probably never going to see this... I don't think he will be offended... Wozza Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Posted October 18, 2005 It's really great to see so many wanna-be historians, who don't know anything but rumours and straight out lies. Folks, check your lousy attitude. Here we have a man, who got a good reputation as general secretary in the UN. Austria denied his own history? You people talk a lot of bullshit! Which country pays the most money for the World War II fiasco besides Germany? It is easy to talk bullshit being American or British! Look who's running your country. Mad people like Bush and Blair! It has always fascinated me, that people who have the most dirt on their fingers have the guts to badmouth other nations! Think about it folks! As Austrian, I have to say this: we have a reputation for exposing people who made a successful living. Same thing with Kurt Waldheim! The presidential campaign was a master display of underhanded tactics, cheap shots and straight out lies. He's proven to be innocent - just keep it that way. And just shut the F**k up, 'cause your people in charge are hell compared to Waldheim's legacy! Dr. Waldheim was one of the most dignified presidents Austria has ever had - a true gentleman! Just ask George Bush's father! He thought the world of Waldheim while in the seat as general secretary in the UN! Being a member of the US watch list is a disgrace in my book - Waldheim does not deserve that! You wanna know the truth about Waldheim? Read Harold Tittman's masterpiece: "Waldheim - democracy subverted!" Never tell the fact 'till you know the fact! Regards, a proud Austrian Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Windsor 2,143 Posted October 18, 2005 Never tell the fact 'till you know the fact! Perhaps you could take a leaf out of your own book then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
football_fan 41 Posted October 19, 2005 It's really great to see so many wanna-be historians, who don't know anything but rumours and straight out lies. So it is a lie that Kurt Waldheim was a Nazi during the Second World War? I think not. Austria denied his own history? You people talk a lot of bullshit! Which country pays the most money for the World War II fiasco besides Germany? It is easy to talk bullshit being American or British! Look who's running your country. Mad people like Bush and Blair! It has always fascinated me, that people who have the most dirt on their fingers have the guts to badmouth other nations! What does this have to do with Kurt Waldheim being a Nazi during WWII? Folks, check your lousy attitude. Here we have a man, who got a good reputation as general secretary in the UN. … Dr. Waldheim was one of the most dignified presidents Austria has ever had - a true gentleman! What Kurt Waldheim did as general secretary of the U.N. and President of Austria does not in any way change what he did as a Nazi during the Second World War. He's proven to be innocent - just keep it that way. And just shut the F**k up, 'cause your people in charge are hell compared to Waldheim's legacy! Just ask George Bush's father! He thought the world of Waldheim while in the seat as general secretary in the UN! Being a member of the US watch list is a disgrace in my book - Waldheim does not deserve that! Kurt Waldheim is not only on the U.S. watch list. Several other countries have banned him from traveling there as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Posted October 19, 2005 Brits and Americans! I'd suggest you all take a good look around and watch your own backyard every now and then. Don't stick a finger in somebodies face, when your own politicians are dirty from head to toe. Those who criticize the most, have also a lot to hide! Traditionally people from America and Great Britain cry "foul" the loudest, but won't see their own mistakes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magere Hein 1,397 Posted October 19, 2005 Brits and Americans! I'd suggest you all take a good look around and watch your own backyard every now and then. Don't stick a finger in somebodies face, when your own politicians are dirty from head to toe. Those who criticize the most, have also a lot to hide! Traditionally people from America and Great Britain cry "foul" the loudest, but won't see their own mistakes. You still don't get it, do you? Saying that other people aren't nice doesn't take away the fact that Waldheim was a Nazi, the only claim our list makes about that man. I'm neither Brit nor American. From 1940 to 1945 another fine Austrian Nazi, Arthur Seyß-Inquart, was Reichskommissar in my country. He was not only a Nazi, but also a war criminal and duly hanged after the Nuremberg trials. We never claimed that KW did similar nasty things. I do claim that some of the worst Nazis, including the worst one, were Austrians. Anyone who presents Austria as the first victim of the Nazis rather than their first ally is tweaking history. regards, Hein Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Posted October 19, 2005 It's great to see, that America plays the world's greatest cop! Good cop or bad cop!? You decide! In my book, the Americans should keep their mouths shut! True, Waldheim participated in WWII, and yes, the side he fought was Nazi-territory! The question is though: all the smears came out just prior to Waldheim's election. The thing is, that in Austria, there isn't such a "watchlist" and many Americans come to mind who should have been transfered to the list! You Americans have a lot to explain, but when it comes to state the facts, America is likely to fail: -Cuba Crisis - Vietnam War - Nixon's downfall - Ford's Mayaguez-incident - the war on communism in general - Iran-Contra Affair - Iraq War I+II, Afghanistan - POW harassment in Abu Ghraib etc., etc.... Just a short list, but it can be extended at will! And a wink to my British friends: playing the mindless little brother is great, huh? Just look at your greatest moron, Blair! A liar to the bone, a spineless little freak, that acts as Bush's little teaser! Also great to see all the great actions, Britain is taking in the EU! Gaining from old profits, "the iron lady" Thatcher has carved out illegally. And let's not forget the Troubles! Now the weapons are silent in Northern Ireland, but for how long? Provos, Loyalists, Sinn Fein, IRA,... You all have your share of problems, too! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tuber Mirum 119 Posted October 19, 2005 Quite right, every bit of it (except perhaps the bit about Mrs. Thatcher, sadly), but Waldheim was still a Nazi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Posted October 19, 2005 Your chap has engaged his brain, buddy! Mass genocide? Yes! Horror? Yes! But has Waldheim killed over 5 million people? Hell, no! He was part of the Axis side, but there is NO proof whatsoever, that Waldheim, as nazi, committed or instructed mass murder. Always keep that in mind before you rant and rave about your favourite Austrian foe! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Windsor 2,143 Posted October 19, 2005 Always keep that in mind before you rant and rave about your favourite Austrian foe! My favourite Austrian (if indeed he was) foe is Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand's driver. If only he had taken the right route.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magere Hein 1,397 Posted October 19, 2005 Mass genocide? Yes! Horror? Yes! But has Waldheim killed over 5 million people? Hell, no! Since you don't seem to be the brightest bulb in the batch, I'll type this slowly: I have just read this whole thread again. No one has claimed that KW killed anyone. That he was a Nazi is a matter of record. Is there anything about that that you don't understand? regards, Hein Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
