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1 hour ago, Thatcher said:

Yet another critical blunder from Corbyn. Not only will Labour get a battering for being a full up remain/referendum party now, but after whingeing for an election for so long he rejects the chance to go to the people. And what for? To pass urgent no-deal legislation. Legislation which requires the Prime Minister of the day to go to the EU and request an extension. But obviously, having an election on the 15th October means that should Boris get in with a majority he can repeal that legislation straight away and not even bother asking for any extension, crack on with no-deal and make Corbyn look like an idiotic coward who faffed around for no reason at all. Quite the gamble. 

 

The legislation doesn't get Royal Assent until mid-next week (possibly even after prorogation. Corbyn will not support the election until it passes, it's a safeguard to make sure we don't accidentally crash out during an election. So Corbyn's strategy appears to be pass the no-Deal legislation and leave Boris in no 10 until the summit, but bound by parliament to request an extension. Then go for the election once that bill receives royal assent.

 

Whilst I see the strategy, my concern is when that election does eventually come whether it be October/November Boris will blame Corbyn for their being no Brexit and go down the "only a Tory majority can deliver Brexit" election campaign and paint Corbyn as anti-democratic. Hence kicking out Remainer Tories, to show Brexiteers his party is pro-Brexit.  Corbyn needs to vote for FTPA motion tomorrow in my opinion.

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1 hour ago, Thatcher said:

Yet another critical blunder from Corbyn. Not only will Labour get a battering for being a full up remain/referendum party now, but after whingeing for an election for so long he rejects the chance to go to the people. And what for? To pass urgent no-deal legislation. Legislation which requires the Prime Minister of the day to go to the EU and request an extension. But obviously, having an election on the 15th October means that should Boris get in with a majority he can repeal that legislation straight away and not even bother asking for any extension, crack on with no-deal and make Corbyn look like an idiotic coward who faffed around for no reason at all. Quite the gamble. 

 

That's the point of waiting for Royal Assent. Dumbass. The election couldn't be called to next week (on a tight timetable), or after prorogation. 

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7 hours ago, Deathray said:

All 21 MPs who voted against the government have been expelled from the party.

 

Leaves the government with 289 MPs. or 299 with the DUP.

 

An election is absolutely necessary but Corbyn won't bloody vote for it for fucks sake. He's trapping himself and handing the power play to Boris for the upcoming election. He needs to tell the rebel alliance to fuck off and back the FTPA motion tomorrow or he loses the election, with Boris playing the "Corbyn took the opportunity for the country to decide who to send to the EU Summit off the table by voting against a necessary election." card. Can't believe Labour have fell for this rubbish.

 

We've spent two years demanding an election.

That's politics folks, a fucking dirty game. 

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8 hours ago, Deathray said:

 

That's the point of waiting for Royal Assent. Dumbass. The election couldn't be called to next week (on a tight timetable), or after prorogation. 

What's Royal Assent got to do with it? No Parliament can bind the hands of a successor. It can easily be repealed, tight timetable or not. If Boris did get a majority, it wouldn't even matter if it was repealed or not - he wouldn't need to go and ask for an extension. As I repeatedly said before, he's held in contempt of Parliament (although he wouldn't be because the arithmetic of Parliament would have changed). What next? 

 

P.S. We established you were the dumbass when you were claiming Labour had the policy of sort out no deal legislation and then campaign for general election rather than just go for general election for the past two years, as I hope you have realised now is not the case at all. 

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Thought from the centre-ground: it's incredibly hard to imagine the Tory party without Ken Clarke.

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38 minutes ago, Thatcher said:

What's Royal Assent got to do with it? No Parliament can bind the hands of a successor. It can easily be repealed, tight timetable or not. If Boris did get a majority, it wouldn't even matter if it was repealed or not - he wouldn't need to go and ask for an extension. As I repeatedly said before, he's held in contempt of Parliament (although he wouldn't be because the arithmetic of Parliament would have changed). What next? 

  

P.S. We established you were the dumbass when you were claiming Labour had the policy of sort out no deal legislation and then campaign for general election rather than just go for general election for the past two years, as I hope you have realised now is not the case at all. 

 

It has always been the case, you don't constantly state the nuances of a position, Labour's position has been hold a VoNC in the government and then have a general election. I'm yet to see the VoNC, one which will be tabled after the legislation passes the house. Why hold an election that only suits Boris when Conservative introduced law allows you to seize control of parliament then have your election. We're following the plan we've always had. Date of the election. If it's after the EU summit, Johnson has to go to the summit and ask for the extension and gets humiliated before a general election. 

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Funny how the Tories can find the money tree when they want an election.

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5 hours ago, Deathray said:

 

It has always been the case, you don't constantly state the nuances of a position, Labour's position has been hold a VoNC in the government and then have a general election. I'm yet to see the VoNC, one which will be tabled after the legislation passes the house. Why hold an election that only suits Boris when Conservative introduced law allows you to seize control of parliament then have your election. We're following the plan we've always had. Date of the election. If it's after the EU summit, Johnson has to go to the summit and ask for the extension and gets humiliated before a general election. 

After you said if he didn't he'd get held in contempt of Parliament, I've repeatedly asked you and then what? You are yet to produce an answer. Theresa May's Government was held in contempt of Parliament and there was no consequence. If the consequence is simply a VoNC, then it gives Johnson exactly what he wants? With the added bonus of appearing to stand up to the Remainers and EU.

 

Picture this: the beginning of an election campaign and you're honestly expecting Johnson to play ball and go over to the EU and beg for an extension? Or he'll just not bother and play hardball to win over the Brexit supporters whilst gearing up for an campaign? 

 

Corbyn and Co. can never again trot (geddit?) out the line 'I've spent my whole life opposing the Tories!' and 'This Tory Government is causing misery and harm' because they are now responsible for keeping the Tories in power. The public are not dim and will see through this crap. Corbyn is really making a tit of himself. 

 

As I mentioned last night, this whole thing is a pointless charade and finally Westminster is waking up to that.

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6 hours ago, msc said:

Thought from the centre-ground: it's incredibly hard to imagine the Tory party without Ken Clarke.

The centre ground no longer exists...and yes, I can imagine the Tory party without Ken Clarke, the bastard should have been put out to pasture years ago.

 

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1 hour ago, Thatcher said:

After you said if he didn't he'd get held in contempt of Parliament, I've repeatedly asked you and then what? You are yet to produce an answer. Theresa May's Government was held in contempt of Parliament and there was no consequence. If the consequence is simply a VoNC, then it gives Johnson exactly what he wants? With the added bonus of appearing to stand up to the Remainers and EU.

  

 Picture this: the beginning of an election campaign and you're honestly expecting Johnson to play ball and go over to the EU and beg for an extension? Or he'll just not bother and play hardball to win over the Brexit supporters whilst gearing up for an campaign? 

 

Corbyn and Co. can never again trot (geddit?) out the line 'I've spent my whole life opposing the Tories!' and 'This Tory Government is causing misery and harm' because they are now responsible for keeping the Tories in power. The public are not dim and will see through this crap. Corbyn is really making a tit of himself. 

 

As I mentioned last night, this whole thing is a pointless charade and finally Westminster is waking up to that.

 

He has too. It's not a motion he's going against, it's law. It's not a case of contempt of parliament.. The bill be introduced requires Johnson to have explicit consent from parliament for no deal exit, he won't get it. So we have the extension, and another election.  It's a case of criminal prosecution for breaching the law. May was held in contempt for failing to show documents asked for by parliament, not for breaking legislation imposed by parliament.  Boris is not going to take that risk of fighting a legal battle during an election, he'll agree to the extension and we'll have an election. Labour have no problem with an election, just not until there's no chance of Boris taking us out while we have that election, they've stated today they've seeked advice from lawyers on the earliest point they can back and election and ensure Boris is not just in contempt of parliament but breaking the law if he doesn't seek an extension at the summit.

 

It's not hard to see the position. "Johnson can have his election when we know we can have that election without the risk of the date being changed or him refusing to comply with our legislation."

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1 hour ago, Thatcher said:

After you said if he didn't he'd get held in contempt of Parliament, I've repeatedly asked you and then what? You are yet to produce an answer. Theresa May's Government was held in contempt of Parliament and there was no consequence. If the consequence is simply a VoNC, then it gives Johnson exactly what he wants? With the added bonus of appearing to stand up to the Remainers and EU.

 

Picture this: the beginning of an election campaign and you're honestly expecting Johnson to play ball and go over to the EU and beg for an extension? Or he'll just not bother and play hardball to win over the Brexit supporters whilst gearing up for an campaign? 

 

Corbyn and Co. can never again trot (geddit?) out the line 'I've spent my whole life opposing the Tories!' and 'This Tory Government is causing misery and harm' because they are now responsible for keeping the Tories in power. The public are not dim and will see through this crap. Corbyn is really making a tit of himself. 

 

As I mentioned last night, this whole thing is a pointless charade and finally Westminster is waking up to that.

The problem here is that you are pissing onto a strong headwind and you are getting your trousers wet.

It has come to the point where opinion is so divided that the country is fucked.

I find it incredible that people actually think that not leaving the EU will not cause any issues with the tens of millions that voted to do just that. 

In effect, we will all roll over, fart, sigh and just plod on through life.

Maybe invite the leavers onto Waterloo bridge to listen to Whale songs and smoke spliffs while clinking those little finger cymbals.

It is not going to happen, is it.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Fellatio Nelson said:

The problem here is that you are pissing onto a strong headwind and you are getting your trousers wet.

It has come to the point where opinion is so divided that the country is fucked.

 I find it incredible that people actually think that not leaving the EU will not cause any issues with the tens of millions that voted to do just that. 

 In effect, we will all roll over, fart, sigh and just plod on through life.

 Maybe invite the leavers onto Waterloo bridge to listen to Whale songs and smoke spliffs while clinking those little finger cymbals.

It is not going to happen, is it.

 

Even the Labour party want to leave the EU, just with a deal. Not on calamitous accidental no deal during an election cycle.

 

The next Labour manifesto will commit to renegotiation of a deal. That's why they want the bloody anti-no-deal legislation in before the flipping election, so we actually have the chance to renegotiate after the election rather get handed a no deal calamity government's mess with no chance of stopping it.

 

The only people who want to remain are the nutty Lib Dems who can't keep a promise long enough to finish typing it, the Extinction Rebellion party whose MPs is a feminazi a nutter anyway (and I see that as someone who used to vote Green) and the sycophantic Scottish Nationalists who just  want to see the UK die so they can get a independence referendum again. 

 

Labour are still committed to a deal, and putting that deal to a vote against either no deal or not leaving. 

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37 minutes ago, Deathray said:

 

 and the sycophantic Scottish Nationalists who just  want to see the UK die so they can get a independence referendum again. 

Erm….SNP want to remain at best, of course they do. Because every constituency they represent voted to remain.

 

SNP also were the first to propose possible deals within the UK regarding an orderly Brexit. Binned by Tezza on sight, who believes less in the Union than having Gove, Johnson and Rees-Mogg kiss her leather trousered butt.

 

No Scottish Tory defied Johnson. That will haunt them in any forthcoming election, prepared to contemplate a no-deal Brexit which would destroy major parts of the Scottish economy. Ferengi Javid's election bribe announced today will not be honoured, especially if we crash out - the money won't be there.

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1 hour ago, Lord Fellatio Nelson said:

Maybe invite the leavers onto Waterloo bridge to listen to Whale songs and smoke spliffs while clinking those little finger cymbals.

 

 

I quite like the sound of that.  Let me know when it's happening.   d010.gif

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6 hours ago, Deathray said:

 

Even the Labour party want to leave the EU, just with a deal. Not on calamitous accidental no deal during an election cycle.

 

The next Labour manifesto will commit to renegotiation of a deal. That's why they want the bloody anti-no-deal legislation in before the flipping election, so we actually have the chance to renegotiate after the election rather get handed a no deal calamity government's mess with no chance of stopping it.

 

The only people who want to remain are the nutty Lib Dems who can't keep a promise long enough to finish typing it, the Extinction Rebellion party whose MPs is a feminazi a nutter anyway (and I see that as someone who used to vote Green) and the sycophantic Scottish Nationalists who just  want to see the UK die so they can get a independence referendum again. 

 

Labour are still committed to a deal, and putting that deal to a vote against either no deal or not leaving. 

I think it is a hard sell to say Labour are committed to leaving when Watson Thornberry Starmer actively want to remain.It appears they are pro referendum with the aim of remaining.Interestingly though Corbyn  based on his 32 year backbench career as very much anti EU as we're many of the supporters of Tony Benn.Issue is he has had to support the remain stance as given the majority of his supporters and MPs are very committed remainers.

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Just now, Sean said:

I think it is a hard sell to say Labour are committed to leaving when Watson Thornberry Starmer actively want to remain.It appears they are pro referendum with the aim of remaining.Interestingly though Corbyn  based on his 32 year backbench career as very much anti EU as we're many of the supporters of Tony Benn.Issue is he has had to support the remain stance as given the majority of his supporters and MPs are very committed remainers.

 

It's why Corbyn need a snap election, if he waits til 2022 all his policies have to be steered by a load of Labour think tanks. If he goes to a snap election he and John McDonell can write the manifesto them self, this is where the split between the date to call an election in Labour comes from, it's another Corbynit v Blairite division.

 

Anyway reading the Fixed Term Parliaments Act it's clear that the government could propose a motion of no confidence in itself which is what I assume they will do next, as only a simple majority needed; i.e they whip their own MPs to vote against themselves.  

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Also it seems that BoJo can theoretically hold a Vote of No Confidence in himself under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act which then requires a simple majority for an election.

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29 minutes ago, Deathray said:

 

It's why Corbyn need a snap election, if he waits til 2022 all his policies have to be steered by a load of Labour think tanks. If he goes to a snap election he and John McDonell can write the manifesto them self, this is where the split between the date to call an election in Labour comes from, it's another Corbynit v Blairite division.

 

Anyway reading the Fixed Term Parliaments Act it's clear that the government could propose a motion of no confidence in itself which is what I assume they will do next, as only a simple majority needed; i.e they whip their own MPs to vote against themselves.  

Johnson won't get a simple majority as he holds no majority.

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1 minute ago, Sean said:

Johnson won't get a simple majority as he holds no majority.

 

Reading it again the election happens automatically. He passes the No Confidence motion, the opposition can't vote in confidence of Boris's goverment,whilst they could get away with abstaining on the election issue they can't get away with that. 

 

2Early parliamentary general elections

(1)An early parliamentary general election is to take place if—

(a)the House of Commons passes a motion in the form set out in subsection (2), and

(b)if the motion is passed on a division, the number of members who vote in favour of the motion is a number equal to or greater than two thirds of the number of seats in the House (including vacant seats).

(2)The form of motion for the purposes of subsection (1)(a) is—

That there shall be an early parliamentary general election.

(3)An early parliamentary general election is also to take place if—

(a)the House of Commons passes a motion in the form set out in subsection (4), and

(b)the period of 14 days after the day on which that motion is passed ends without the House passing a motion in the form set out in subsection (5).

(4)The form of motion for the purposes of subsection (3)(a) is—

That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government.

(5)The form of motion for the purposes of subsection (3)(b) is—

That this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government.

(6)Subsection (7) applies for the purposes of the Timetable in rule 1 in Schedule 1 to the Representation of the People Act 1983.

(7)If a parliamentary general election is to take place as provided for by subsection (1) or (3), the polling day for the election is to be the day appointed by Her Majesty by proclamation on the recommendation of the Prime Minister (and, accordingly, the appointed day replaces the day which would otherwise have been the polling day for the next election determined under section 1).

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Deathray said:

 

Reading it again the election happens automatically. He passes the No Confidence motion, the opposition can't vote in confidence of Boris's goverment,whilst they could get away with abstaining on the election issue they can't get away with that. 

 

2Early parliamentary general elections

(1)An early parliamentary general election is to take place if—

(a)the House of Commons passes a motion in the form set out in subsection (2), and

(b)if the motion is passed on a division, the number of members who vote in favour of the motion is a number equal to or greater than two thirds of the number of seats in the House (including vacant seats).

(2)The form of motion for the purposes of subsection (1)(a) is—

That there shall be an early parliamentary general election.

(3)An early parliamentary general election is also to take place if—

(a)the House of Commons passes a motion in the form set out in subsection (4), and

(b)the period of 14 days after the day on which that motion is passed ends without the House passing a motion in the form set out in subsection (5).

(4)The form of motion for the purposes of subsection (3)(a) is—

That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government.

(5)The form of motion for the purposes of subsection (3)(b) is—

That this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government.

(6)Subsection (7) applies for the purposes of the Timetable in rule 1 in Schedule 1 to the Representation of the People Act 1983.

(7)If a parliamentary general election is to take place as provided for by subsection (1) or (3), the polling day for the election is to be the day appointed by Her Majesty by proclamation on the recommendation of the Prime Minister (and, accordingly, the appointed day replaces the day which would otherwise have been the polling day for the next election determined under section 1).

 

 

 

Wouldnt a " government of national unity" almost certainly be formed in a no confidence motion being succesful.

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What I am trying to find out is at what point is Johnson mandated by law to sign the extension?I reckon he will leave it to the 11th hour then resign as PM hoping that a government of national unity could not be formed quickly enough to get a new PM to submit the extension request.

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1 minute ago, Sean said:

Wouldnt a " government of national unity" almost certainly be formed in a no confidence motion being succesful.

 

It could be tried but it wouldn't necessarily have the support of parliament even if parliament passed a no confidence vote in Johnson, these are the batshit crazy times we live in.

Government 247

Conservative 289

DUP 10

 

Possible National Unity Government - 302

Labour 247

SNP 35

Lib Dem 15

Plaid 4

Green 1

 

Independents :36

Ex-Tories (might vote for VoNC in Johnson, could hold there nose and vote against Corbyn's unity government): 21

Change UK - (Anti-Johnson would not support a Corbyn government by all accounts) 5.

 

There's then Lady Sylvia Hermon and a handful of other independents.

 

So you could have a situation where parliament votes Johnson out but refuses Corbyn's government. (He has first shot as leader of the opposition). Given the length of time such negotiations take finding another leader in 14 days could be tricky even if the VoNC passed.

 

There's a majority against Johnson but not necessarily for an alternative government.

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1 minute ago, Sean said:

What I am trying to find out is at what point is Johnson mandated by law to sign the extension?I reckon he will leave it to the 11th hour then resign as PM hoping that a government of national unity could not be formed quickly enough to get a new PM to submit the extension request.

 

Once it passes Royal Assent. The process outlined above in calling a VoNC in himself might be more effective, as a government of national unity is impractical on some fronts as Labour can't accept anyone but Corbyn yet many opposition MPs and independents would vote Johnson out but no Corbyn in. 

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9 minutes ago, Deathray said:

 

Once it passes Royal Assent. The process outlined above in calling a VoNC in himself might be more effective, as a government of national unity is impractical on some fronts as Labour can't accept anyone but Corbyn yet many opposition MPs and independents would vote Johnson out but no Corbyn in. 

Once it passes royal assent it must be enacted upon.Does it state when the bill must be signed and delivered by?

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1 hour ago, Sean said:

Once it passes royal assent it must be enacted upon.Does it state when the bill must be signed and delivered by?

 

Here you go.

 

As soon as it receives Royal Assent it's the law. It's formally granted that in prorogation at the end of a parliamentary session. 

 

The practical implementation of an Act is the responsibility of the appropriate government department, not Parliament. 

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