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The Mad Hatter

Thoughts and opinions on the death list 2019

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9 minutes ago, Banana said:

I could not understand what would make you think Shane MacGowan is more famous than Barbara Walters, Bob Barker and Jerry Stiller

Because I'm English.....

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Which of course is the problem with any such list. They are almost always subjective.

 

One might argue that some set of metrics against which to measure would increase the objectivity. Of course then all you'd end up doing is arguing about the things you are measuring.

 

As an example it is probable that most people in the UK would know who June Brown is whether or not they watch Eastenders but unless the show has been syndicated to the US, on Broadcast tv not some niche soap cable channel (and I'm assuming not), there's no particular reason an average american will have ever heard of her.

The same is true of Barbara Walters in reverse. No major presence on UK tv, as far as I know and thus is far less known here.

 

The problem is, what are you measuring here? Because if its purely the number of people who know who someone is, Walters beats Brown by 5 to 1 or so on population alone. Yet this is a UK site and a UK deathlist so Walters simply isn't as famous here.

Arguably in fact there are far more Americans on the list than statistically there should be. Partly due to American domination of Film Production and the rest of the world considering American politics to be newsworthy.

 

There are similar generational issues, I recall several posts claiming Avicci (sp?) as being a momentous death that wasn't sufficiently weighted here. Yet many of a certain age had never even heard of him.

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@En Passant I did try and think about the relative levels of fame. At the top you have Prince Philip which I don't think anyone would dispute and I put Kirk Douglas below him because he was a global superstar actor.

 

World leaders scored high and film stars but I tried to rank them in their levels of iconography.

 

Whilst we spend more time discussing Olivia de Havilland I think Doris Day would be more recognisable in the public.

 

Struggled with people like Tina Turner and Vera Lynne trying to think outside the paraochial UK centric box. How famous is Vera outside of the UK?

 

The US stars that have no traction over here I tried to place higher than the equivalent UK TV stars because of your point about global populations but someone like Honor Blackman was Pussy Galore.

 

I did tend to penalise people that I have only heard about because of the Deathlist.

 

Please send me your own version by DM (to avoid clogging the thread with endless lists) and I will try and create and averaged out one.

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Is Johnny Clegg the least famous person ever to grace the official Deathlist?

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Just now, Bibliogryphon said:

Is Johnny Clegg the least famous person ever to grace the official Deathlist?

Although he’s not that famous on an international level, he still is a major cult figure that will guarantee him a BBC obit. Fergie Frederiksen and Ruby Muhammad are miles below him on how famous they were...

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1 hour ago, Bibliogryphon said:

Is Johnny Clegg the least famous person ever to grace the official Deathlist?

I think Errol Christie is less famous than him. Johnny Clegg got songs on Youtube with over a Million watches and a Wikipedia page in 16 languages. Errol Christie only got a Wikipedia page in two languages (Turkish and English).

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Did Clegg ever sit down with Mad Frankie?

 

I think not.. .

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, charon said:

 

 

Did Clegg ever sit down with Mad Frankie?

 

I think not.. .

 

 

 

 

 

Did Errol ever sing and dance with Nelson Mandela? I think not.

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He did......

 

nelson-mandela-dances-with-his-old-law-p

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Poor comparison..... Mandela killed way more folk than Frankie, yet he was the one labelled 'Mad'.

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Are we being really unlucky, is there going to be an avalanche mid year or should we have filled the list with under 60s?

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It's been a year of big, but not huge names so far. B+ but not A-list, so to say.

Even if I'd have called Karl Lagerfeld deathlisty, I still wouldn't count him as a miss because of the suddenness of his death.

The committee might have missed André Previn who was known to be ill for a while. Maybe Bruno Ganz, too, but in the UK, he was only known for the meme.

So far, it's hard to see much the committee could have done better.

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On 21/02/2019 at 07:28, Bibliogryphon said:

Following the discussion in the QEII thread about the relative fame of Deathlist picks I thought I would begin to look at this in a bit more depth. As I said the criteria that contributes to a persons inclusion is dependent on three things
 

Age  - this is a fact (unless you are Doris Day) and it is easy to rank them on this

 

Fame - There is a fame threshold below which someone would not be considered Deathlist worthy but that is pretty low if you have;

 

Illness/Lifestyle - This is the most important but it is also the most difficult because there are the Clive James approach. "Look guys I am dying,.........still dying.........honestly I could go any day now.........publishes book........wow I am still here........I'll be gone soon......" or there is the Lewis Collins approach. Nothing and then turns up dead one day or the halfway house ala Val Kilmer "there is nothing wrong with me" but appears in public looking awful and there is much speculation

 

However I have tried to address the level of fame and ranked this years picks in fame order. 

 

I appreciate this is highly subjective but I have tried to consider worldwide fame and the media reaction to any of these deaths.

 

1                     Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh

2                     Kirk Douglas

3                     Jimmy Carter

4                     Tina Turner

5                     Mikhail Gorbachev

6                      Robert Mugabe

7                     Doris Day

8                     Olivia De Havilland

9                     Sidney Poitier

10                  Vera Lynn

11                 Harry Belafonte

12                  Dick van Dyke

13                  Desmond Tutu

14                 Emperor Akihito

15                  Little Richard

16                 Jacques Chirac

17                  Hosni Mubarak

18                  Pierre Cardin

19                 Betty White

20                 Ed Asner

21                 Stirling Moss

22                 Larry King

23                 Nobby Stiles

24                  Gordon Banks

25                 Murray Walker

26                 Clive James

27                  Jimmy Greaves

28                 Bob Hawke

29                 Valery Giscard d'Estaing

30                 Herman Wouk

31                 Henry Kissinger        

32                 Bob Dole

33                 Alan Greenspan

34                 Javier Perez de Cuellar

35                 Honor Blackman

36                 Vanessa Redgrave

37                 Prunella Scales

38                  Ginger Baker

39                  Loretta Lynn

40                  Valerie Harper

41                  June Brown

42                 Shane MacGowan

43                  Bob Barker

44                 Barbara Walters

45                 Cleo Laine

46                  Jerry Stiller

47                 Tony Britton

48                 John McCririck

49                  Leah Bracknell

50                  Johnny Clegg

If you want to disagree just DM  me your fame rankings and I will combine them into a DL overall fame ranking and then I might try to plot age and fame against position on list to determine if there is a correlation.

Attempt at Aussie fame rankings (it really depends on age though - older people will know Vera Lynn better than they know Tina Turner, for instance. Clive James would probably have been ranked higher in the past when he was on television more often, Stirling Moss when he was racing, Chirac when he was in office, etc):

 

1. Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh
2. Bob Hawke
3. Jimmy Carter
4. Mikhail Gorbachev
5. Kirk Douglas
6. Olivia De Havilland
7. Dick van Dyke

8. Doris Day
9. Robert Mugabe
10. Henry Kissinger 

11. Desmond Tutu
12. Clive James

13. Alan Greenspan
14. Hosni Mubarak
15. Jacques Chirac

16. Harry Belafonte

17. Vera Lynn

18. Tina Turner

19. Cleo Laine

20. Vanessa Redgrave
21. Honor Blackman

22. Little Richard

23. Stirling Moss
24. Murray Walker

25. Sidney Poitier
26. Prunella Scales

27. Javier Perez de Cuellar
28. Betty White
29. Pierre Cardin

30. Emperor Akihito
31. Barbara Walters
32. Larry King
33. Bob Dole

34. Loretta Lynn
35. Ginger Baker
36. Valery Giscard d'Estaing
37. Ed Asner
38. Valerie Harper
39. June Brown        
40. Bob Barker 
41. Nobby Stiles

42. Herman Wouk
43. Jerry Stiller

44. Gordon Banks
45. Jimmy Greaves            
46. Tony Britton
47. John McCririck
48. Leah Bracknell
49. Johnny Clegg
50. Shane MacGowan

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On 21/02/2019 at 16:04, Bibliogryphon said:

@En Passant I did try and think about the relative levels of fame. At the top you have Prince Philip which I don't think anyone would dispute and I put Kirk Douglas below him because he was a global superstar actor.

 

World leaders scored high and film stars but I tried to rank them in their levels of iconography.

 

Whilst we spend more time discussing Olivia de Havilland I think Doris Day would be more recognisable in the public.

 

Struggled with people like Tina Turner and Vera Lynne trying to think outside the paraochial UK centric box. How famous is Vera outside of the UK?

 

The US stars that have no traction over here I tried to place higher than the equivalent UK TV stars because of your point about global populations but someone like Honor Blackman was Pussy Galore.

 

I did tend to penalise people that I have only heard about because of the Deathlist.

 

Please send me your own version by DM (to avoid clogging the thread with endless lists) and I will try and create and averaged out one.

Some more random musings on relative fame and coverage of death:

 

1. Yesterday, Luke Perry, the star of a half-forgotten soap opera from 20 years ago, received a lot more coverage in the Australian mainstream media than that satanic-looking tosser from Prodigy (so Hollywood promotional power counts). Neither came near the levels of fawning over the homegrown icon that was Mike Willesee though.

 

2.In terms of fame relative to audience age, Carrie Fisher is best known to my generation as Princess Leia and was a huge star in her own right, irrespective of any actual acting skills she may have possessed. To my mum's generation though, she is really just Debbie Reynold's daughter. Carrie's death received a lot more coverage than Debbie's though in the "double event" death. Debbie was basically portrayed in the media as just Carrie's mother and the star of some old forgotten films(!) Kirk Douglas is of course a superstar but I am wondering how many younger people today would know Michael better and think of him more in terms of being Michael's dad without having seen his films. 

 

3. Likewise, Robin Williams received a lot more coverage than Lauren Bacall  the following day who ended up just being a footnote on the news. So even Hollywood stardom fades with the decades. Does make me wonder what would happen if, say, Olivia's death happens at the same time as that of a younger, bigger star.

 

4. I ranked Prunella Scales higher on the list higher than Ed Asner or Valerie Harper because the ABC repeats her old shows frequently  whereas, to my knowledge, Mary Tyler Moore has never been repeated. They were probably bigger stars at the time, so, yes, UK stars can be more famous than American ones in certain circumstances. Basically, in Australia, commercial television stations buy Yank shows and the ABC buys Pommie shows so we have a dose of each (SBS buys foreign language shows which is good for my knowledge on the Foreign Stars thread.)

 

5. To answer your question, yes, Vera Lynn is super-famous outside the UK. She is seen as the epitome of Englishness, for better or worse.

 

6. Not sure about Olivia versus Doris in the fame stakes either. I put Olivia slightly higher because she was in more classics, including the iconic Robin Hood with "our" Errol but it was a tough one.

 

7. Emperor Akihito is moderately well known as the head of state of a major trading partner but with so many Japanese-Australian citizens now perhaps I have shown Anglo bias ranking him so low.

 

8. Moss versus Walker was also tough. Moss was a superstar in his day bit you never hear of him in Australia now. I wouldn't have a vlue what he has done post-racing whereas Walker is the media face of the sport as the chief comentator so possibly more well known to young people.

 

9. Since soccer isn't as popular as AFL or Rugby League in terms of media coverage in Australia (though things are gradually changing) Banks and Greaves suffer badly. Anywhere else in the world, they'd probably be ranked a lot higher but they are not known here at all by the general public.

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16 minutes ago, Davey Jones' Locker said:

Some more random musings on relative fame and coverage of death:

 

Since you muse, here's what I sent Biblio when he asked for them.

 

1.       Kirk  -The most A listy acting veteran alive?

2.       Prince Philip – Again, worldwide fame

3.       Sidney Poitier – One of the most recognisable actors to ever live.

4.       Gorbachev – Instantly recognisable world leader.

5.       Jimmy Carter – US President

6.       Dick van Dyke – Mary Poppins, World Wide Star

7.       De Havilland – Again, huge name actress

8.       Mugabe – Most famous living ex-dictator?

9.       Tina Turner – Massive A music star

10.   Doris Day – Huge name

11.   Kissinger – One of those news faces

12.   Tutu – Huge apartheid figure/tv regular worldwide

13.   Little Richard – big music star

14.   Belafonte – Big civil rights star/music legend

15.   Akihito – Japanese leader, not as famous as others

16.   Betty White  - Big name US actress whose been on UK TV.

17.   Chirac – French leader

18.   Larry King – US TV guy with worldwide fame/film appearances

19.   Vanessa Redgrave – Huge name in UK.

20.   Barker – The US Bruce Forsyth, so famous there he gets referenced here often in the way 99% of their TV hosts don’t.

21.   Gordon Banks – World Cup winner in the 60s.

22.   Lynn Vera – World famous in 1940s.

23.   Mubarak – Lesser known dictator

24.   June Brown – A list in UK. Iconic role plus long career moves up few spots.

25.   Stirling Moss – Huge sports name with older generations

26.   Bob Dole – Big US Politician but mostly known for old and ill for 15 years!

27.   Bob Hawke – Oz politics not as well known, but Hawke one of their most famous

28.   Cardin – The label is world famous

29.   Bracknell – Instantly recognisable among UK soap fans and world wide fans of UK soaps.  I know that not us, but there are millions of them.

30.   Nobby Stiles – World Cup winner but least famous of the “names everyone knows”.

31.   Jerry Stiller – Huge in US and here (but many years ago). My mum knows who he is.

32.   M Walker – A well known UK voice. Think known elsewhere in the Worldwide F1 community.

33.   Blackman – 60s actress, Bond raises her up several spots.

34.   Shane McGowan – Pogues singer/Fairytale of new York = world wide fame. (except in Australia)

35.   Clive James – International fame, but not worldwide.

36.   Greaves – More known for his TV Career, fast disappearing in the rear view window.

37.   Giscard d’estaing – French leader but their most obscure

38.   Walters – Famous in US circles.

39.   Wouk – Really old and dry writer. Known more than read?

40.   Ed Asner – Voice actor, so known but not by name.

41.   Loretta Lynn – Influential but obscure.

42.   McCririck – Recognisable in  UK circles even to non-racing watchers.

43.   Ginger Baker – 3rd most famous member of Cream

44.   Prunella Scales – TV actress only known here

45.   Alan Greenspan – Vaguely famous US economist

46.   Harper V – US TV actress famous 30 years ago.

47.   Tony Britton – One of those faces 40 years ago

48.   Cleo Laine – Really obscure old figure now, sorry

49.   JPDC – Even folk at the time don’t recall him.

50.   Johnny Clegg – Cult figure. Important but hidden.

 

I'd probably change some of it around, but the ball park is my gut feeling on their fame levels.

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18 hours ago, Davey Jones' Locker said:

Attempt at Aussie fame rankings (it really depends on age though - older people will know Vera Lynn better than they know Tina Turner, for instance. Clive James would probably have been ranked higher in the past when he was on television more often, Stirling Moss when he was racing, Chirac when he was in office, etc):

 

1. Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh
2. Bob Hawke
3. Jimmy Carter
4. Mikhail Gorbachev
5. Kirk Douglas
6. Olivia De Havilland
7. Dick van Dyke

8. Doris Day
9. Robert Mugabe
10. Henry Kissinger 

11. Desmond Tutu
12. Clive James

13. Alan Greenspan
14. Hosni Mubarak
15. Jacques Chirac

16. Harry Belafonte

17. Vera Lynn

18. Tina Turner

19. Cleo Laine

20. Vanessa Redgrave
21. Honor Blackman

22. Little Richard

23. Stirling Moss
24. Murray Walker

25. Sidney Poitier
26. Prunella Scales

27. Javier Perez de Cuellar
28. Betty White
29. Pierre Cardin

30. Emperor Akihito
31. Barbara Walters
32. Larry King
33. Bob Dole

34. Loretta Lynn
35. Ginger Baker
36. Valery Giscard d'Estaing
37. Ed Asner
38. Valerie Harper
39. June Brown        
40. Bob Barker 
41. Nobby Stiles

42. Herman Wouk
43. Jerry Stiller

44. Gordon Banks
45. Jimmy Greaves            
46. Tony Britton
47. John McCririck
48. Leah Bracknell
49. Johnny Clegg
50. Shane MacGowan

Is Fairytale of New York not played there at christmas? As if it is then Shane MacGowan surely is more well known than a few others even if it's not by name.

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Well I have got the opinions of The Australian jury to go alongside two British geeks (no offence) so do any of our US or European posters want a go?

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23 minutes ago, The Old Crem said:

Is Fairytale of New York not played there at christmas? As if it is then Shane MacGowan surely is more well known than a few others even if it's not by name.

 

Pogues did well in NZ (Fairytale was 5th, GOAT album contender IISFFGWG sold buckets) but dunno about Oz-land: probably too busy listening to Stefan Dennis records or what not.

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Do we think we will get a second hit before the end of March?

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We are now 20% through the year. I do not now think we will get into double figures.

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33 minutes ago, Bibliogryphon said:

We are now 20% through the year. I do not now think we will get into double figures.

Same it will be close though.The only dead cert at the moment is Brackers.

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Clegg I suppose is close to a cert though.

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In fairness to the committee it is a dry spell.Even names I thought they were silly to omit:Ricksen Westbrook Turnbull Alagiah Muller Hume Hurd Goldberg Trintignant Peters Bill Gates Sr Barbara Windsor Ginsberg and Blanco are all still breathing.

 

There haven't even been any big misses beside Tork.Phillips Gazza  Newton John Nolan Osbourne and Gascoine are still breathing

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I only have 2 DDP hits despite my team looking like an undertakers wet dream.

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Perhaps we shouldn't be panicking just yet. In 2014 the second hit did not occur until 6 April and there were 12 hits in total that year. On the other hand 2016 had 5 hits by this time.

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