UFOs, Space Aliens and the like

[Banshees Scream 110]

Mary, let me ask you something. You've mentioned UFO related topics on numerous occassions and I never felt that I had the 'On -topic' opportunity to confront you about it. So, my question for you is, 'what is your stance' on the subject? Are you one of those UFO skeptics who find every excuse in the world to debunk the possibility of extraterrestrial life, or do you actually believe in advanced civilizations who observe and examine the earth?

 

This is also very off topic by the way- but I don't care. Let's get this thread interesting.

[deadsox 894]

The way to get a topic interesting is to talk about UFO's?

[Banshees Scream 110]

The way to get a topic interesting is to talk about UFO's?

Well, if you find a topic miserably boring, I guess that might make you feel misrable and your entitiled to be. I feel topics which are easily debatable usually attract quality arguments. A database like this is the essential platform to discuss topics of controversy and with a someone of your intelligence, I find it hard to believe that you would disagree with me.

[honez 79]

Are you one of those dogmatic skeptics, who find every excuse in the world to debunk the possibility of extraterrestrial life, or do you actually believe in advanced civilizations who observe and examine the earth?

You might have left a few options off there, BS. You imply that there is no life external to our biosphere at all, or that there is and it is advanced, civilised and observing us.

[Banshees Scream 110]

Honez: You categorize so deeply. My initiative 'in my mind' was that '90 percent' of people who believe in extraterrestrial beings would also believe that 'at least one species' is sophisticated enough to reach our galaxy. My assumption was 'if' Mary believed in that, he would also believe they observe. I didn't process the chance that he might only believe in life forms less advanced then we were.

 

The view of a civilization less advanced then us, reminds me of a former boyfriend to one of my aunts. He was a 59 year old 'black listed doctor' who was a Jew and a half (5'6 with glasses and looked ten years younger and also loved that show 'Friends' with a bowl of ice cream) but he really was a good guy. She threw him out because he bought her a cheap engagement ring. He also didn't want to pay for the million dollar house they agreed to go 50\50 on ... but he did believe in a less advanced civilization.

[honez 79]

Honez: You categorize so deeply. My initiative 'in my mind' was that '90 percent' of people who believe in extraterrestrial beings would also believe that 'at least one species' is sophisticated enough to reach our galaxy. My assumption was 'if' Mary believed in that, he would also believe they observe. I didn't process the chance that he might only believe in life forms less advanced then we were.

 

The view of a civilization less advanced then us, reminds me of a former boyfriend to one of my aunts. He was a 59 year old 'black listed doctor' who was a Jew and a half (5'6 with glasses and looked ten years younger and also loved that show 'Friends' with a bowl of ice cream) but he really was a good guy. She threw him out because he bought her a cheap engagement ring. He also didn't want to pay for the million dollar house they agreed to go 50\50 on ... but he did believe in a less advanced civilization.

At the risk of going completely off-topic here -- it's far more likely that if there is sentient life outside our biosphere (I'd say it's possible and probable that there is life), and if they were sufficiently advanced, then why would they even bother?

On a scale of I to III for types of civilisation, this article suggests we wouldn't even make the grade to Type I.

Type III civilisations (or projecting out to IV or V) make me think of Riddick's line in Pitch Black... "So where the hell's your God now?"

I seriously doubt they'd be interested in our Type 0 concerns. That would be similar to the EU or USA being interested in the comings and goings of a particular baboon troop in Zimbabwe.

[maryportfuncity 10,620]

Is that 'Mary' above a reference to me and my sketicism about UFOs?

 

Well, at risk of running over the same old ground again my main reasons for sketicism are the constant contradictions in the UFO literature with regard to the best covered cases. The fact that 'UFOlogy' has a habit of throwing up big cases - Manhatten Transfer, Botswana Skycrash, Alien Autopsy movie - that fall apart the second anyone with real scientific credentials examines them. The fact that some serious research into UFO believers has shown clear evidence of belief in 'external locus of control.' Check out Steven P Resta on that one with his snazzinly titled thesis: 'The Relationship of Anomie and Externality to Strength of Belief in Unidentified Flying Objects.' Or David Clark and Andy Roberts book 'Flying Saucery' for the accessible social history of UFOlogy. And finally, cos I spent a decade or so involved in research of one kind or another that put me amongst Forteans and UFO believers and pretty soon realised that Roberts and Clark were right, the thing most in need of study is the believers themselves. Oddly that's one published observation that unites John Keel and Timothy Good who inhabit different areas of UFOlogy.

 

None of which means we're alone in the cosmos.

[maryportfuncity 10,620]

Speaking of strange phenomena have you noticed the odd disappearing act that happens when someone mumbles about UFOs and quotes vast numbers of people who believe?

 

Throw a few facts back, especially detailed peer reviewed research and they just vanish. Strange that, eh?

[honez 79]

Speaking of strange phenomena have you noticed the odd disappearing act that happens when someone mumbles about UFOs and quotes vast numbers of people who believe?

 

Throw a few facts back, especially detailed peer reviewed research and they just vanish. Strange that, eh?

Not really... I don't know if that was directed at me, I suspect not. But for the record, I do believe in UFOs: Unidentified Flying Objects. That covers a whole gamut of (by definition) unidentified craft, phenomena, objects, etc. Do I believe these are spaceships/timeships/etc guided by aliens? Absolutely not. But I do believe there is life out there, some of which might be sentient, but most of it not. I don't believe that any of them are flying around here in saucer or cigar-shaped ships lit up like a Christmas tree. And I certainly don't believe they abduct people, mutilate cows or have a fetish for anal probes.

[maryportfuncity 10,620]

Not having a go at you Honez, more our colleague BS who seemed able to muster 90% of people who believe in UFOs but can't usually manage a constructive argument in the face of hard evidence. His approach is the classic 'residue fallacy' sort beloved of bad scientists where the argument runs: '90% of people believe in alien life and there are lots of unexplained experiences where people claim to have met aliens.........therefore, the claimants are telling the truth.'

 

I'm pretty much with you on what I believe.

[Banshees Scream 110]

Mary ... mary your jumping to conclusions. First of all, you can't judge my approach on the subject genius because I haven't given it yet! I think my estimation of (90%) of people who believe in other life, also believe that life is sophisticated enough to reach our planet, is near accurate. My view is 'they know more then you think' and some government 'or governments' on this earth have managed to produce some very high tech crafts. My view is 'they are like Benjamen Franklin trying to build a Mercedes' .. they might have an idea but they probably aren't using the most effective material.

 

Overall, I guess the fact is 'No hard evidence on Sciences coffee table'. There isn't substantial evidence of 'extraterrestrials' ... but with something called footage it's irrational to think people always misinterpret what they see under the stars. Something is happening here ... but what is happening? This I would consider fake. In this next video, it seems to be a light show. I can't see how anything of this earth could exist in that form. It's footage like this where I'm speechless.

[honez 79]

It's footage like this where I'm speechless.

One of the people who commented on that video wasn't. This is what they had to say (which speaks volumes).

I agree that we will see more and more of these "lights in the sky" as we have entered the FIfth NIght-according to Mayans.THis is a year of revelation. All the traumas and all the lies will come out in every aspect of our existence. Clear Your past by forgiving and open your 3rd eye to what is real- LOVE

... and there rests the case for the defence M'Lord.

[maryportfuncity 10,620]

'they know more then you think'

 

What, I'm supposed to start thinking when 'they' prove they know more?

 

Not convinced by that footage BS.

 

I am convinced that a history of peer reviewed research has helped us understand aspects of psychology, electro-magnetism and atmospheric phenomena that contribute to UFO reports. I'm also convinced that the UFO community shows massive turnover of those involved, suggesting many enthusiasts for belief soon find their passion waning, often in the face of withering demolitions of the stories they believed were true.....like Roswell and Rendlesham Forest.

 

If you, or anyone, were going to advance ONE case as hard evidence of ET contacts with this planet, which case would it be?

[Guest Is the evidence staring us in th]

If you, or anyone, were going to advance ONE case as hard evidence of ET contacts with this planet, which case would it be?

 

I'm not sure BS comes from the same planet as you and I. Would this hold in a court of Cumbrian law?

[maryportfuncity 10,620]

'Cumbrian law' is enforced in dark alleys. The enforcers care little for a person's view on UFOs, but care greatly about their sexual proclivities.

 

C'mon BS, one case, I mean, one case that would hold up as hard evidence of UFO contact. Do Dr Roger Lier's implants count? Or maybe the UFOs over Washington in the 1950s?

 

I could name you about four so intriguing they demand serious thought, but none of them prove ET involvement to me.

[Lord Fellatio Nelson 6,218]

I happen to believe, for my sins.

Is their proof? Well bugger all is going to land on the Whitehouse lawn and declare "We come in peace" and IF its all true will anybody tell us? Will they f**k!

So much has been written, reported, so much has been debunked and the debunkers have been debunked...which has then been debunked

Personally, I stick to the principles of one Timothy Good and prefer to read of strange goings on ( or I used to before I got bored) on places like the PPrune website, a forum for professional pilots. Some of that made very interesting reading.

Hard evidence? Well there is no hard evidence for the existence of God but I still believe in God.

If you view God as a genial old beardy in a toga it seems somewhat Bertie Bo**ocks.

If, however, your interpretation of the Almighty is a power/energy that is greater than mankind then it doesnt seem so bloody daft, does it?

[Banshees Scream 110]

The video from India definitely proves a spectacle in the sky, but I never made it an extraterrestrial reference. The whole idea 'in reality' of other beings examining our earth is very unrealistic to me on some level. Then again, sometimes you have to go beyond the rational barriers which surround 'what you do and do not believe'. I'm very open to the possibility of UFO interpretations being of earthly phenomena, just as I'm open to many possibilities of misinterpretation. I feel, on the other hand, that the consistency of which these sightings occur are far too frequent to be considered atmospheric phenomena. There has been disease on result of bizarre radiation. There has also been metal found in humans which has been 'unidentifiable'. I've considered that a majority of these unexplained occurrences 'affecting other humans' and to be 'unspecific' are games of government operation. Then again, human bodies may have the capability to develop microscopic traces of metal in their system (I have no idea how). What is evidential in my book is the symmetrically shaped areas of dead grass on result of a combination of chemicals, which were identified as the cause in many cases. In my view, even the most radical skeptic ''and I'm very radical towards some subjects' must agree a higher form of technology was responsible for leaving it's mark. For those who object that scenario, I consider them pathetically ignorant.

[maryportfuncity 10,620]

LFN, totally with you on the discussion of the view of God. Not so with Timothy Good. I wouldn't argue with his royalty cheques but you might want to check out the work of David Clark and Andy Roberts with regard to the cases Good reports. Basically, loads of the stuff in Above Top Secret and Beyond Top Secret is comprehensively disproved, much else is highly suspect.

 

BS, if you could be more specific - like naming a case or two - we could debate your opinions. Re the implants, it's Dr Roger Lier who is the greatest advocate. He's pulled pieces of metal from a few people but then there are lots of humans walking around with shards of something under their skin. Roger Lier recently blew $25,000 removing and investigating a splinter of wood that might well have been in the person since childhood. His work is interesting but that's about it. There's also the very real possibility that some people fake their own implants. There's a hell of a story about a man who kept swallowing the same doll's head, shitting it out, boiling it and swallowing it again. Read that story in 'The Pocket Essential UFOs' just recently where the author was making the point that in a world where that happens people faking implants is totally plausible.

 

Re the circles on the ground, have you read some of the recent stuff written by the likes of Jenny Randles where she points out the fungal growths and other things that can cause these effects? Oh aye, and re that video, could that have been done with special effects, you know, like the Alien Autopsy movie was done and like the UFOs seen in Hollywood movies for decades? People went mental a while back for that multiple sighting and video shooting in Mexico City. The UFOs eventually proving to be the planet Venus and a weather balloon, both visible during an eclipse.

[Guest Patrick O'Moore]

... There's a hell of a story about a man who kept swallowing the same doll's head, shitting it out, boiling it and swallowing it again. ...

"Oi tink dat's awl hoighly unloikely."

[maryportfuncity 10,620]

It's true Patrick, the self-same chapter also mentions an Israeli doctor who has a display of the most improbable objects, all united by the fact they were surgically removed from an anus. That's a lot of different bottoms, obviously. But either way, these stories are true, unlike your posting name eh Patrick?

 

If you are the real Patrick, tell us the truth about Cedric Allingham.

[honez 79]

If you are the real Patrick, tell us the truth about Cedric Allingham.

There's no use, the truth will never come out. It's a government conspiracy.

I know someone who thinks he used to work for the government. He saw some pictures once in a folder marked "Secret Squirrel - Eyes only" with lots of pictures of anal probes. If that's not proof I don't know what is. ;-)

[maryportfuncity 10,620]

From a UFO web site:

 

 

 

"Contactee" Cedric Allingham's Flying Saucers from Mars (Frederick Muller, London, 1954) is now widely presumed to have been a hoax perpetrated by the skeptical English astronomer Patrick Moore.

 

C'mon Patrick, time to tell your side of the story whilst you're still breathing.

[TAFKAG 70]

The MoD has released some of the UK's X-Files. I'm sure it'll all be sillier and funnier than the US version, more Carry on Martian than Close Encounters.

[maryportfuncity 10,620]

Indeed TAFKAG, they've finally declassified the file on the Alfred Burtoo 'abduction' in Aldershot. Basically an oldster out fishing claimed to have been invited aboard a landed UFO before being told he was 'too old and infirm' for their purposes and given his marching orders. Timothy Good appeared very convinced in Above Top Secret but Burtoo's mates waited until his death to start waxing lyrical over his somewhat dry sense of humour.

 

Also the Rendlesham Forest files are declassified in this lot, though they contain a lot less and make fewer fanciful claims than the weighty tomes like Left at East Gate.

[Madame Defarge 21]

I find it odd that none of these things has ever crashed while trying to land. We are after all located in the boondocks galaxy-wise , a dark and lonely place to run out of fuel or to need emergency flying saucer parts.