On Content and Form

[Typhoid Harry 23]

I grinned when reading this headline, reminds me of myself a few mights ago when I was trying to be the referee in the 'Tempus Fugit' VS 'Typhoid Harry' fight. But to make it perfectly clear, there is no feud between myself and Windsor.

 

There was never a fight between TF and I because he was asking for me to name a place, and I'm not about to cross a continent and an ocean because:

 

 

Besides, if I want TF to go away, I just make him go away. Takes about three mouse clicks.

[CarolAnn 926]

There was never a fight between TF and I because he was asking for me to name a place, and I'm not about to cross a continent and an ocean because:

 

 

Besides, if I want TF to go away, I just make him go away. Takes about three mouse clicks.

 

I've worked with the Special Olympics and as a general rule I find more humanity there than any other place I find myself - including the internet.

 

Sometimes I wonder who's really "retarded."

[Typhoid Harry 23]

Calm down, CA, I work with them here, too, but you've got to have a sense of humor. Check out the blog from a good friend of mine who has dedicated her life as a special educator; if it weren't for the humor, she'd go insane: Tardblog

 

Objection to the word "retarded" or its variations just further insulates those afflicted from the help they need.

[CarolAnn 926]

Calm down, CA, I work with them here, too, but you've got to have a sense of humor. Check out the blog from a good friend of mine who has dedicated her life as a special educator; if it weren't for the humor, she'd go insane: Tardblog

 

Objection to the word "retarded" or its variations just further insulates those afflicted from the help they need.

 

How holier than thou.

 

Sorry - I find your friend's blog offensive. She wouldn't be teaching my son. Anyone who can't show respect to her students, regardless of what they bring to the table, doesn't deserve to know them. Her "disclaimers" are nothing more than a sad attempt to justify her lack of respect for her students and to follow the great American tradition of saying that one can't possibly be doing anything out of line - it is, as always, someone else's prejudices, preconceptions, ideas, sick mind, etc....that's at fault.

 

She ought to be a politician. Especially since she - in her own words - wants to have enough money to drink herself into a stupor four nights a week. There's a reason to respect someone.

[Typhoid Harry 23]

Calm down, CA, I work with them here, too, but you've got to have a sense of humor. Check out the blog from a good friend of mine who has dedicated her life as a special educator; if it weren't for the humor, she'd go insane: Tardblog

 

Objection to the word "retarded" or its variations just further insulates those afflicted from the help they need.

 

How holier than thou.

 

Sorry - I find your friend's blog offensive. She wouldn't be teaching my son. Anyone who can't show respect to her students, regardless of what they bring to the table, doesn't deserve to know them. Her "disclaimers" are nothing more than a sad attempt to justify her lack of respect for her students and to follow the great American tradition of saying that one can't possibly be doing anything out of line - it is, as always, someone else's prejudices, preconceptions, ideas, sick mind, etc....that's at fault.

 

She ought to be a politician. Especially since she - in her own words - wants to have enough money to drink herself into a stupor four nights a week. There's a reason to respect someone.

 

Speaking of "holier than thou"! Who has children who haven't laughed at them. My nephew was the source of most of my best material for years. If a child happens to have "mental challenges", some of the humorous moments are going to come from that. I'm sorry if you have a child whom is "developmentally disabled", but does using that term really make you feel better? The lady who writes that blog works 70+ hours a week with some seriously messed up kids. If she wants to drink her cares and demons away afterwords, that's her prerogative. She also happens to be my ex and an absolute saint. She has affected more good things upon retarded children in this world than I can possibly articulate. Your child would be quite lucky to know her.

[Captain Oates 21]

Calm down, CA, I work with them here, too, but you've got to have a sense of humor. Check out the blog from a good friend of mine who has dedicated her life as a special educator; if it weren't for the humor, she'd go insane: Tardblog

 

Objection to the word "retarded" or its variations just further insulates those afflicted from the help they need.

This is a UK site and I think that you will find that the word "retarded" (and its variants) is considered offensive here when used in that context. If as you claim, you have worked with the "Special Olympics" you ought to know that as it is an international organisation.

 

I would hope for more sensitivity from a moderator on a site like this which deals (in its own peculiar way) with a very sensitive topic.

 

Perhaps it's time to brush up on your English vs American language skills!

 

I don't like your "ex"'s site either - I note that she feels the need to include a 'disclaimer' to protect herself from upset readers. Is this sort of thing, exemplified by the picture above, your idea of humour/humor, TH?

 

Besides banning this site's more entertaining posters.......

[Typhoid Harry 23]

This is a UK site and I think that you will find that the word "retarded" (and its variants) is considered offensive here when used in that context. If as you claim, you have worked with the "Special Olympics" you ought to know that as it is an international organisation.

 

I would hope for more sensitivity from a moderator on a site like this which deals (in its own peculiar way) with a very sensitive topic.

 

Perhaps it's time to brush up on your English vs American language skills!

 

I don't like your "ex"'s site either - I note that she feels the need to include a 'disclaimer' to protect herself from upset readers. Is this sort of thing, exemplified by the picture above, your idea of humour/humor, TH?

 

Besides banning this site's more entertaining posters.......

 

Good lord, M. Oates, don't you get the point? Most people dealing with adversity don't want your pity or sympathy; they want your respect. They also realize that humor is part of that. When my best friend's 12-year-old daughter loses it in a crowd (she has Tourettes) I laugh my arse off and encourage others to join me. You think they, the afflicted (whether Downs, Tourettes, or MS, ad nauseum) don't know they're different? Would you have the world pretend they are normal? Ask a few "physically challenged" people what they would prefer, and then get back to me, okay. That mongoloid looking boy I posted in that pic? He thinks it's hilarious. When you start treating "disabilities" as if they don't exist, you make the person disappear. Ask any midget, er, sorry, height challenged person. It's crap, all of it, People know where they stand and spot phony empathy a mile away.

Be honest with people, regardless of condition, and I promise you will meet honest people.

[Magere Hein 1,400]

When you start treating "disabilities" as if they don't exist, you make the person disappear. Ask any midget, er, sorry, height challenged person.

I had a look at that Tardblog. It won't become my favourite read on the Web, but I have no problem with it. The words used may be offensive, but if you replace them in your imagination by euphemism of choice nothing offensive is left. I think the authors use the word 'tard' quite affectionately.

 

While a word like 'tard' is considered offensive, the problem is not the word, but the way people perceive tards. You can replace the word by any other, within weeks the euphemism du jour will get exactly the same offensive quality. In my life I've seen several cycles of this happen in Dutch: 'zwakzinnig' (feebleminded) was replaced by 'imbeciel', 'geestelijk gehandicapt' (mentally disabled), 'moeilijk lerend' (difficult learning) and 'verstandelijk gehandicapt' (intellectually disabled). In the days that politically correct language was in fashion more were proposed and cheerfully forgotten.

 

It's the content of that blog that matters, not the words the authors choose to indicate their students.

 

regards,

Hein

[Captain Oates 21]

Good lord, M. Oates, don't you get the point? Most people dealing with adversity don't want your pity or sympathy; they want your respect. They also realize that humor is part of that......

Of course I understand the point you are trying to make.

 

Many of us are sensitive to the difference between laughing "with" and laughing "at".

You appear to be laughing "at" and assuming that the rest of us will join in.

 

The caption on that picture is a disgrace.

 

 

The words used may be offensive, but if you replace them in your imagination by euphemism of choice nothing offensive is left.

Choice of words is the task of the writer! Words are not cheap! And they are powerful! It is not easy to un-say something when the damage is done, particularly when dealing with vulnerable people and their families. Users of this site (DL) are surely aware of that!

 

I think the authors use the word 'tard' quite affectionately.

Lengthy excuses are made by the authors for that word but their bottom line is, in effect "if anyone is offended, we don't care, we are going to use it anyway."

This is not someone's private diary, it is an internet blog.

 

 

The anti-PC argument is a complex and precarious one, which extends also to racism, ageism, religious tolerance, sexism, and many other categories. I'm not sure how long a thread on that topic would last on this forum, particularly under current moderation.

[Magere Hein 1,400]

The words used may be offensive, but if you replace them in your imagination by euphemism of choice nothing offensive is left.

Choice of words is the task of the writer! Words are not cheap! And they are powerful! It is not easy to un-say something when the damage is done, particularly when dealing with vulnerable people and their families. Users of this site are surely aware of that!

I agree. That said: it's not the point I was trying to make. My point is this: you can call 'sh*t' anything you like, like 'poo', 'excrement' or 'faeces', it doesn't make it smell any better.

The anti-PC argument is a complex and precarious one, which extends also to racism, ageism, religious tolerance, sexism, and many other categories. I'm not sure how long a thread on that topic would last on this forum, particularly under current moderation.

I think such a discussion will live. I don't think it should live in this topic, though. I'll create a separate topic for it if there's enough interest for it.

 

regards,

Hein

[Typhoid Harry 23]

When you start treating "disabilities" as if they don't exist, you make the person disappear. Ask any midget, er, sorry, height challenged person.

I had a look at that Tardblog. It won't become my favourite read on the Web, but I have no problem with it. The words used may be offensive, but if you replace them in your imagination by euphemism of choice nothing offensive is left. I think the authors use the word 'tard' quite affectionately.

 

While a word like 'tard' is considered offensive, the problem is not the word, but the way people perceive tards. You can replace the word by any other, within weeks the euphemism du jour will get exactly the same offensive quality. In my life I've seen several cycles of this happen in Dutch: 'zwakzinnig' (feebleminded) was replaced by 'imbeciel', 'geestelijk gehandicapt' (mentally disabled), 'moeilijk lerend' (difficult learning) and 'verstandelijk gehandicapt' (intellectually disabled). In the days that politically correct language was in fashion more were proposed and cheerfully forgotten.

 

It's the content of that blog that matters, not the words the authors choose to indicate their students.

 

regards,

Hein

 

Ding ding ding!!! Yay, somebody gets it.

 

And, M. Oates, would you feel better if the caption read, "Arguing on the internet is like running in a race for the specially challenged, even if you win you're still specially challenged!"?

[Captain Oates 21]

And, M. Oates, would you feel better if the caption read, "Arguing on the internet is like running in a race for the specially challenged, even if you win you're still specially challenged!"?

Then, of course, you wouldn't think it was funny so you wouldn't bother to post it.

 

So the answer would be yes.

[Banshees Scream 110]

Do you like the site?

 

Want it to stay up?

 

Help pay for it!

 

'Laughter' 'The first laugh'

 

I'm think to myself, "What a f**ked up supermarket--they serve frozen tard."

 

'Laughter' The second laugh'

 

I understand the humor that Typhoid Harry is trying to bring, he doesn't need to be told 'what is' and 'what is not' offensive. If you can understand this humor you understand the rules, and since his 'ex' dealed with these disabled children each day, she would have the nature to create humor and jokes about the students that she cares about so much. But at the same time, this is an advertisement of her anger, and the stressful hell which she was put through each day. I will comment and say it is strange to hear a respected teacher making harsh jokes about her students, especially if these stories were true. If they were created like a cartoonist draws a picture, or how the poet writes a poem, or how the musician creates a song, then it should be much less offensive to the audience. Everyone has different tastes, 'they say it is allright to laugh at others if they are like you' or 'It is allright to laugh at others if you can laugh at yourself' overall I don't see anything pathetically wrong with this, but since it involves children, and assuming some these stories are true, mainly because I don't think she dreamt up the 'Tard Crusher' - Expect and Accept criticism.

 

Edited October 21, 2006 by Magere Hein

[The Pooka 26]

When you start treating "disabilities" as if they don't exist, you make the person disappear. Ask any midget, er, sorry, height challenged person.

 

While a word like 'tard' is considered offensive, the problem is not the word, but the way people perceive tards. You can replace the word by any other, within weeks the euphemism du jour will get exactly the same offensive quality. In my life I've seen several cycles of this happen in Dutch: 'zwakzinnig' (feebleminded) was replaced by 'imbeciel', 'geestelijk gehandicapt' (mentally disabled), 'moeilijk lerend' (difficult learning) and 'verstandelijk gehandicapt' (intellectually disabled). In the days that politically correct language was in fashion more were proposed and cheerfully forgotten.

regards,

Hein

Agree. A rose is a rose is a rose.

 

Interestingly, I believe that the term 'learning difficulties' was rapidly superseded in the UK by 'learning disabilities' when dyslexic people objected to being grouped with people who had formerly been graded as idiots (IQ<40), imbeciles (IQ<60) and morons (IQ<80).

 

I find it strange that, on a web-site where poor taste is a ticket of entry, I feel somewhat uneasy about the picture and the link........ and I'm not sure why.

[Canadian Paul 97]

I used to work for the most hated campus newspaper. Basically it's point was make as many offensive, racist, sexist and obscene jokes as possible (dead babies, jokes on rape etc. etc.) In my young idealistic stage, I joined up for a year because I thought we were crusading for free speech and all of that. The jokes got old, I grew up and I quit. Now I don't particularly defend them, but I don't speak against them either.

 

I think that just because one has a freedom of some type doesn't mean they have to use and abuse it at every chance they get. A freedom is there to protect what needs to be done, not to allow what can be done. People who complain about the relatively little censorship we get in the West should take a step back and realize that in many countries, censorship is so bad that you don't even get the chance to complain that it exists. My point is that TH has any and every right to post that picture on the forum, but that doesn't mean that he has to.

 

I like the ladies of deathlist. They tolerate a lot of strange, morbid, weird and perverted crap from many members of the DL and yet keep coming back to entertain us and, at least in my case, accept and cheer us up when we're done. While I agree with TH in the sense that excluding a certain group of people from being mocked only serves to seperate them further from the "norm" (whatever the hell that is supposed to be, don't even get me started...), perhaps this isn't the proper forum to argue the case. I respect and admire the ladies of DL enough to be willing to give up my right to say whatever I want on this forum in order to make them a bit happier.

 

I think the moderate thing to do would have been to say "Sorry CA, I didn't mean to offend you." and leave it at that while taking down the original offense. We can argue forever on what is appropriate and what is not, but hopefully we can all agree that we enjoy each other's company enough that we'd rather have a little honour and apologize for something that may have offended a respected member instead of going on the war path to defend our every action. We have freedoms, and sometimes we abuse them. The question is, what's more important, your full and unabriged freedoms or a little bit of respect from the highest caliber of people that I know?

[Windsor 2,233]

Perhaps there should be a system of equality regarding offense.

 

For example, I'm a complete bastard and as such people should have full right to try and offend me where it is called for.

On the other hand, there are some nice friendly members out there (the modettes). People have no right to offend them because they hardly ever offend people. In these circumstances offense should be tolerated.

 

For example, CA had every right to bring up her given subject today because TH was being a offensive git. Looking at CA's history, he should have known to draw the line, apologised and called it quits. He didn't.

 

Another example, you can be as rude to Banshees as you like because he is the second rudest bastard that ever lived. (We can't have him being best at anything, he'll just boast).

 

Anyway, thus ends the wisdom of Windsor - make of it what you will...

[Godot 149]

Methinks there is something of the Chris Morris (Brass Eye) about our Harry. I was about to describe him as a sociopath (dictionary definition: one who displays an antisocial personality disorder, who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience). If there are traces of the former I do not think he lacks a social conscience, far from it. It seems to me that he is trying hard to force us to confront differences between people in a more enlightened way. I know there are sensitivites among people with disabilities to the language used in their presence. Equally it is unacceptable to be avoided or ignored by people who would rather not recognise your differences.

 

I wouldn't use the word "tard" in the way it is used routinely by TH's ex but I think her stories are revealing. I don't think she captures the dignity that is owed to those who have a mental illness or disability in the same way that Ken Kesey did in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. But the humour is similar.

 

Having said that, I don't see how you can argue with Captain Oates' observation that the capition is laughing "at" rather than "with" the young chap in the picture. Is it mocking the afflicted? Or is the afflicted in this case the mocker not the mockee?

 

I'm not sure I buy the argument entirely that if you treat disabilities as if they don't exist you make the person disappear. Sure, you recognise the disabilities but you don't go on about them all the time. If you recognise the person - that he or she exists - surely that's the most important thing. Do you laugh at Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson when she is unable to get on the stage at the BBC's sport's personality of the year awards? Or do you rage at the thoughtlessness of the producers?

 

Mental disability is one of the last great taboos and TH is confronting it head on. Personally I think the picture and caption misfires yet again. Still, he's provoked an important debate. The way we relate to differences shouldn't be swept under the carpet. Not sure I've expressed msyelf as well as I should have done but it's one tough subject.

[Twelvetrees 10]

Whether or not Typhoid Harry has raised an important debate, I rather think he was simply after a cheap laugh at the expense of a minority unable to reply.

 

Would we even be having a debate if this childish and humourless portrayal of a disabled person had been of a black person or a Jew? I hope not.

 

The picture in question merely serves to reify an outmoded and disabling stereotype of people with learning difficulties (the current UK terminology) and, as such, is entirely devoid of redemptive qualities. As someone who works in the disability sector, I find TH's indefensible and antediluvian attitudes offensive to my many colleagues and friends who are disabled, and therefore offensive to me.

 

I could not argue with the right of anyone to free speech or thought, and would not accept censorship of any individual's point of view, but I would add that with freedom comes responsibility - a quality that is signally missing in TH's post.

[Vinegar Tits 606]

I find it strange that, on a web-site where poor taste is a ticket of entry, I feel somewhat uneasy about the picture and the link........ and I'm not sure why.

I don't find the picture offensive: seen it loads of times as it gets posted on Popbitch at least a couple of times a month, and I remember Tardblog as the British media have picked up on it before (I seem to recall the author being on Radio Five's Up All Night a few years back).

 

What I find laughable is that we're discussing taste and decency on a site where posters often wish people dead. Of course anyone with a mentally disabled relative is going to get upset, but then you can take offence at anything if it personally affects you.

 

As for the pathetic term 'learning difficulties', I wish people would just say it as it is for covers far too wide a populus. You wouldn't believe the amount of people who have dealings with Social Services and whose actions are swept under the carpet and excused as 'oh, they have learning difficulties'. You're either mentally disabled or just plain thick. End of.

 

Don't mind me - in a crappy mood due to the football. It's tough being a Leeds fan at the moment

[in eternum+ 22]

There was never a fight between TF and I because he was asking for me to name a place, and I'm not about to cross a continent and an ocean because:

 

<<snippage of questionable imagery>>

 

Besides, if I want TF to go away, I just make him go away. Takes about three mouse clicks.

My main problem with most of this is TH's declaration that he won't enter into debate with anyone (level of drunkeness notwithstainding) but that he'll simply suspend / ban them instead.

 

I find this extremely troublesome and somewhat unacceptable coming from a Moderator.

 

Give or take a few intances, we've managed quite well without your seemingly heavy-handed brand of moderation, TH. I appreciate your reasons for being away over the past year, but it seems logical to me that you should realise that the DL you're coming back to might be different to the one you left. If you don't like how it's changed you could always leave again.

[Banshees Scream 110]

My main problem with most of this is TH's declaration that he won't enter into debate with anyone (level of drunkeness notwithstainding) but that he'll simply suspend / ban them instead.

 

I find this extremely troublesome and somewhat unacceptable coming from a Moderator.

 

There is no debate if you feel there is no argument. Typhoid Harry's opinion probably slides much different then your own. Members are often antagonizing him, my outlook on this situation is simple, let time slowly pass, and he will become more kind by the day.

[Captain Oates 21]

My main problem with most of this is TH's declaration that he won't enter into debate with anyone (level of drunkeness notwithstainding) but that he'll simply suspend / ban them instead.

 

I find this extremely troublesome and somewhat unacceptable coming from a Moderator.

 

There is no debate if you feel there is no argument. Typhoid Harry's opinion probably slides much different then your own. Members are often antagonizing him, my outlook on this situation is simple, let time slowly pass, and he will become more kind by the day.

Banshees, I like your idea and I hope that it would work.

 

I don't think anyone has deliberately antagonized Typhoid Harry but when a respected member finds it appropriate to click the "Report" button on a moderator's post, something is amiss.

 

Let's hope there are no further incidents to alarm us.

[Typhoid Harry 23]

Good lord, the point of the whole thing is that it's stupid to try to fight on the internet.

[Guest Art Carney's Ghost]

Good lord, the point of the whole thing is that it's stupid to try to fight on the internet.

And here I thought the whole point was for you to accumulate posts and watch your silly words come back and bite you on your fat hairy ass.

[Bald rick 9]

Good lord, the point of the whole thing is that it's stupid to try to fight on the internet.

And here I thought the whole point was for you to accumulate posts and watch your silly words come back and bite you on your fat hairy ass.

Is this another one of your exes, TH?