The Cardinals Of The Roman Catholic Church

[Magere Hein 1,397]

The Roman Catholics just haven't quite grasped that "honesty" is a Christian virtue, have they?

As a matter of fact, this may be considered "bearing false witness", of which the Bible expresses a strong opinion.

 

But who cares really, a confession, a promise to sin no more and some quick penitention and their soul is good as new.

 

I'm not a Christian, but should I ever convert, it'd be to Roman Catholicism. To quote Gerard Reve: "A beautiful belief and not at all expensive."

 

regards,

Hein

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

The Roman Catholics just haven't quite grasped that "honesty" is a Christian virtue, have they?

As a matter of fact, this may be considered "bearing false witness", of which the Bible expresses a strong opinion.

 

Indeed.

 

But who cares really, a confession, a promise to sin no more and some quick penitention and their soul is good as new.

 

I'm not a Christian, but should I ever convert, it'd be to Roman Catholicism. To quote Gerard Reve: "A beautiful belief and not at all expensive."

 

No, my son. Come over to the harsh but purifying light of protestantism instead.

[Tuber Mirum 119]

The Roman Catholics just haven't quite grasped that "honesty" is a Christian virtue, have they?

As a matter of fact, this may be considered "bearing false witness", of which the Bible expresses a strong opinion.

 

But who cares really, a confession, a promise to sin no more and some quick penitention and their soul is good as new.

 

I'm not a Christian, but should I ever convert, it'd be to Roman Catholicism. To quote Gerard Reve: "A beautiful belief and not at all expensive."

 

regards,

Hein

 

According to the rabbi chappie I heard on the radio the other day in a sort of Jewish Thought for the Day, the Talmud is quite clear on the subject.

Bearing false witness counts only in front of a court. In other cases applies the maxim: "For the sake of peace, one may lie"

Not sure if the Catholics believe that too, mind you, but that's what Jehovah intended in the ninth commandment. Apparently.

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

The Roman Catholics just haven't quite grasped that "honesty" is a Christian virtue, have they?

As a matter of fact, this may be considered "bearing false witness", of which the Bible expresses a strong opinion.

 

But who cares really, a confession, a promise to sin no more and some quick penitention and their soul is good as new.

 

I'm not a Christian, but should I ever convert, it'd be to Roman Catholicism. To quote Gerard Reve: "A beautiful belief and not at all expensive."

 

regards,

Hein

 

According to the rabbi chappie I heard on the radio the other day in a sort of Jewish Thought for the Day, the Talmud is quite clear on the subject.

Bearing false witness counts only in front of a court. In other cases applies the maxim: "For the sake of peace, one may lie"

Not sure if the Catholics believe that too, mind you, but that's what Jehovah intended in the ninth commandment. Apparently.

 

Then maybe the anti-semites are right about the Jews...

 

Back on MUCH safer ground, I will try to fnd out some more about the health of various cardinal electors.

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

Struck gold already. Here we go:

 

Keith O'Brien, Scottish, born 1938, has long suffered from a heart murmur was fitted with a pace-maker in 2008

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/7315421.stm

 

O'Brien is not considered in the running to be Pope. He is a bit of a mixed bag, as he is seen as progressive with regard to ending priestly celibacy and tolerance towards homosexuals but is rigid in other areas. In fact, the BBC have called him the "Cardinal of Controversy:"

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6707465.stm

 

However, he will always be remembered as the chap who wanted to ban the singing of the Hokey Cokey:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...hate-crime.html

 

***

 

Walter Kasper, German, born 1933, allegedly suffers from gout.

 

Forgot to mention this minor health issue before. Kasper, the guy who said the UK reminded him of a "third world nation" cancelled his visit after the diplomatic storm erupted due to a convenient bout o' gout. (Kasper has also been the head of so-called inter-faith "dialogue" with Anglicans for years. Apparently this dialogue took the form of him bullying Anglican bishops to make them submit to Rome.)

 

Kasper was being regarded as an outside chance to become Pope but his massive faux pas may have dashed that. If he genuinely does have gout, then that would presumably also hurt his chances since that disease is commonly associated with too much of the "good life". A boozy pope?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11325699

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

Francis George, American, born 1937, suffered from bladder and urethal cancer a few years ago:

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/car...cted_his_faith/

 

LIke most American cardinals, this guy has been heavily tainted by the child abuse cover-up. Before that, he was considered an outside chance to become pope. He is deeply conservative and backed Ratzinger to become pope. He was tipped to success Ratzinger in the Pope's old role as head of the Inquisition but was passed over. (Whether this was due to his health, the child abuse scandal or internal Vatican politics is unknwon.)

 

Lots of details on his health in his Wiki article:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_George#Health_concerns

[Guest letmebeanonymous]

I always find it funny that the pope always gets a lot of backlash for defending those pedofiles.

 

But they don't seem to have any problems with the many Halibuts who still defend a profet with a six year old child bride.

[Windsor 2,142]

I always find it funny that the pope always gets a lot of backlash for defending those pedofiles.

 

But they don't seem to have any problems with the many Halibuts who still defend a profet with a six year old child bride.

 

How old was Mary when she gave birth? Older than 6, but she would still have been deemed a chav teen mother in this world...

[Magere Hein 1,397]

I always find it funny that the pope always gets a lot of backlash for defending those pedofiles.

 

But they don't seem to have any problems with the many Halibuts who still defend a profet with a six year old child bride.

There is at least one difference: while the Pope is very much alive, the Prophet has been dead for almost 14 centuries.

 

regards,

Hein

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

Angelo Bagnasco, Italian, born 1943, has been the subject of death threats for the past few years, including bullets in the mail. The police take them seriously enough that he was assigned a bodyguard. He could no longer say mass in his own church at one stage, due to the death threats.

 

Bagnasco is a hardline conservative and in much favour with Ratzinger. He is a rising star and there is a growing possibility that he may be a future pope (he is engaged in a political war against the other rising star, Angelo Scola, who is apparently a much poorer communicator. So far Bagnasco is winning the war quite easily.) He is extremely political and a pro-war, pro-military figure so not much reference to the "Prince of Peace" there.

 

The death threats allegedly came from gay rights activists after Bagnasco compared them to paedophiles and incestuous people. Such tact! Then again, the inner curia are experts on issues like paedophilia...

 

Anyway, his predecessor in his role as head of the Italian Episcopal Conference, the powerful Vatican politician Cardinal Camillo Ruini, was deeply concerned about the death threats so they were taking it fairly seriously. Don't know how much things have quietened down since then.

 

Article from at time of the start of the scandal and first death threats:

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pop...o_gay_marriage/

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/ita..._genoa_prelate/

 

Might still be a possibility since these threats were obviously more than just an anonymous letter or two. I wonder if there still much anger out there after a few years or if he is likely to mouth off again on this or other issues in the future, stoking the fires...

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

Angelo Amato, Italian, born 1938, also received some death threats at the same time.

 

Amato was Ratzinger's secretary at the Inquisition Office and a Professor of Dogmatic Theology. He feels there is "no place for a dilettante amongst religions." Not considered in the running to become pope.

 

Ratzinger took the death threats against these guys so seriously that he personally spoke out about the "profound and painful shock at the grave and despicable events which aim to disturb the serene coexistence of the civil and ecclesial community."

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

I think I am clutching at straws with this one but:

 

Gabriel Wako, Sudanese, born 1941, suffered "poor health" back in 2004.

 

http://www.sudanvisiondaily.com/modules.ph...le&sid=3253

 

Okay, this is very vague and might just mean he had a bout of the 'flu. Then again, maybe it was more serious. The service he was meant to attend was delayed by four months so he might have been *really* sick or it might just have been inconvenient to reschedule it before then. There doesn't seem to be any more recent information about the bloke's health, apart from that recent assassination attempt mentioned a few weeks ago on this thread.

 

Wako seems like a fairly good cardinal - lobbying for human rights, standing up to the Sudan's corrupt government and working for better education for his people. I would definitely rather see either him or the Congo's Laurent Pasinya as Pope than the other young African, Ghana's Peter Turkson.

 

 

***

 

By the way, I am starting to warm more and more to Christoph Schonborn, the Austrian cardinal. As mentioned over on the Benedict XVI thread, I wasn't sure if he was a cunning politician, a bumbler or someone who was honestly changing and becoming more liberal and compassionate than his colleagues in the wake of the child abuse scandal.

 

Found this interview, which has some unexpected honesty and openess which is unexpected from someone holding the title of cardinal and in the running to be the next pope:

 

http://thereedofgod.blogspot.com/2010/09/c...-interview.html

 

Choice quotes:

 

"As Dominican, I am supposed to pray the Rosary every day and I am a little embarrassed to admit that I am not good Dominican in that sense, since I do not manage to pray the Rosary every day."

 

"How did it happen that I decided to come to Međugorje? I always use to hesitate, and being Cardinal I am very exposed person in Catholic Church, and since there are many controversies and I did not want to start additional discussions, and my opinion on Međugorje was already known."

 

Another article, admittedly in a biased Catholic blog called him "a model of openness and transparency" - interesting after the comments about the Vatican and "bearing false witness" above!

 

 

Here is more on his factional war with Pinochet's mate and excuser of child abuse, Cardinal Sodano:

 

http://marymagdalen.blogspot.com/2010/06/s...sus-sodano.html

 

"Schoenborn on the other hand has been increasingly placing himself on the left, his public questioning of celibacy, his tentative championing of the gay lobby, remember those homo-erotic pictures in his cathedral, the high handed dealing with the bishop Mostar and his visit to Medjugorje have raised his profile above that of many of his European counterparts. Though it is highly unlikely that we will have a second German speaking Pope, it strikes me that Schoenborn is trying to position himself head of left leaning faction. "

- interesting for someone once described as a "rigid conservative."

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/be...n-sodano-papacy

 

"Would any other cardinal but Christoph Schönborn, the Archbishop of Vienna, have joined protesters against clerical sexual abuse in a reconciliation service in his own cathedral and spoken as he did – a service with the motto: "I am furious, God"?

 

Schönborn began by reading out a long and dramatic admission of the Church's guilt. He thanked the abuse victims for breaking their silence and said that abuse in the Church was particularly serious, because it defiled God's holy name. "

 

 

Finally, a big bombshell:

 

http://www.podles.org/dialogue/schonborn-r...d-groer-309.htm

 

".. I asked him what he thought of the book, especially the section on his predecessor, Cardinal Groër...

 

Schönborn said the situation was worse than I knew. Groër had molested almost every student he had come into contact with for decades. After Groër was accused of this abuse, John Paul II continued to receive Groër socially in the Vatican, and tens of thousands of Austrians were resigning from the Church in protest.

 

Schönborn in person pleaded with John Paul to make a statement about Groër. John Paul replied that he would like to, but “they won’t let me.”

 

“They”? I asked Schönborn. Who are “they” who can tell the pope what to do or not to do? Schönborn said that John Paul would not explain. I gathered from the context it must be part of the curia.

 

 

Schönborn has now explained:

 

... Benedict wanted a full probe when former Vienna Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer was removed in 1995 for alleged sexual abuse of a boy.

 

But other Curia officials persuaded then Pope John Paul that the media had exaggerated the case and an inquiry would only create more bad publicity.

 

“He told me, ‘the other side won’,” Schoenborn said.

 

This other side, from all indications, was Cardinal Sodano, the Secretary of State, or at least some influential members of that Secretariat.. Ratzinger did not report directly to the pope, but to the Secretary of State. "

 

Sickening. If all of this is true and Schonborn is not just trying to paint his boss, Ratzinger in a good light and use the already-tainted Sodano as a fall guy, than Schonborn must be one of only a very few decent European cardinals. I wonder if this will or enhance his chances to become pope? I can't imagine openess and honesty and exposing child sex crimes would be valued too highly amongst his peers.

 

Anyway, back on topic, I can't find any news at all on his health but he is still fairly young (born in '45) for a cardinal.

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

LOL -just saw the comment by Indy677 at the bottom of that last article:

 

"From a very reliable source I heard that His Eminence, Angelo Sodano, is “a complete slimeball.” And, the priest, who taught in Rome, was being very charitable."

 

You have to hand it to John Paul 2, repeatedly electing these tossers to the most powerful positions in his cabinet. Sounds like JP2 was at best, weak, at worst turning a blind eye to this. Weird that a Pope who lived through the Nazi and Communist invasions of his country would appoint a mate of Pinochet's to high office as well...

 

Anyway, Sodano was born in 1927, as was Ratzinger, so he is no longer eligible to vote in papal elections. I cannot find any mention of health issues other than he looks a little large and ruddy in photographs.

 

 

Some more about the bastard here, including a photo:

 

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentand...ting-to-happen/

 

Interesting comments about his sinister resemblance to Cheney... From the comments, sounds like he is not too popular even amongst Catholic readers of that website.

[Guest Davey Jones' Locker]

Interesting comments about his sinister resemblance to Cheney... From the comments, sounds like he is not too popular even amongst Catholic readers of that website.

 

 

Speaking of which:

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...gelo_sodano.jpg

 

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Your favourite pope tracker finally took the plunge and registered after a zillion guest posts...

 

 

edit: damn! My avatar's not displaying yet. Failed DeathList 101.

 

edit2: beauty! Fixed it. It is, of course, from Jean Paul Laurens' rendering of the Cadaver Synod: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Ricardo Vidal, Filipino, born 1931, "isn't really in the pink of health" and often needs medical attention.

 

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleid=550393

 

Vidal appears to have had a quiet and undistinguished career, probably overshadowed by Cardinal Sin. He has never been considered as a potential pope nor has he seemed to have done anything remarkable at all. Don't know if such an obscure cardinal would gain a mention in the UK press.

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

By the way, too old to be an elector but Australian cardinal Edward Cassidy (born 1924) has a heart condition and has been very ill for several years. Here is one report from 2008:

 

http://www.cardinalrating.com/cardinal_163__article_7305.htm

 

"Cardinal Cassidy, once ranked as the third-highest man in the Vatican, was in Sydney's St Vincent's Private Hospital with a suspected heart condition." Might be a good UK obit in a year or two.

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Someone has tried to poison Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez of Mexico (born 1933) at least once this decade:

 

http://wwww.cardinalrating.com/cardinal_94__article_223.htm

 

Juan seems like another fairly figure. He is on a lot of committees but not especially prominent in Vatican circles. Obviously he gave someone the irrits, though!

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

I thought I would try to find some information about Arinze's state of health, since many people consider him to still be in the running to be the next pope and he has a high profile, so has very good chances of a UK obit.

 

Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything other than this from 2008:

 

"The Nigerian Daily Sun says that Cardinal Arinze is believed to be tired of living at he Vatican where he has spent 23 of his 59 years in ordained ministry and has opted to return to Nigeria and live with his people."

 

- http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=10564

 

Okay, so we could just take that statement at face value but that wouldn't be in the spirit of DeathList now, would it?

 

Tired of living at the Vatican could = tired of living, which would mean that returning home to his own land might give the old boy a new lease of life.

 

Alternatively, it could mean that things are so bad under Herr Ratzinger and his cronies that he just wants to get out of the Vatican...

 

Anyway, I wonder if, were he to win a papal election in the next year or two, he would return to Rome. Maybe he would turn the offer down.

 

The old boy also gave this rather morbid sermon last year. Could he be speaking from personal experience?

 

"“Should not the time come in which he who has served God and the Church during many years and now is not well ask to be replaced in his important responsibilities in order to allow one who has better health to take the helm? Is this not perhaps a way to allow one who is sick to better prepare himself for the encounter with the Lord? ... priests and bishops should reflect beforehand on how they should respond to a long illness...""

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/bis...ardinal_arinze/

 

Interestingly, according to that first article, Arinze's successor in his old job at the Vatican is Rotten Ali's bet for next pope, Cardinal Antonio Canizares Llovera. I can't find any health info on him (Llovera, not Rotten Ali.)

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Okay, Time thinks Arinze has no chance:

 

"Earlier this month Arinze, 76, retired from his top Vatican post, which for all intents and purposes ended any likelihood that he will ever be pontiff.

 

Once a "Prince of the Church" gives up his day-to-day assignments, he is typically thought to be out of the running for the top job."

 

- http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...1866786,00.html

 

 

The way I understand it works, cardinals can still vote until they are 80. However, they must retire from their roles at 75. It is up to the pope to decide to accept that retirement offer. If he wants to get rid of a cardinal, he will accept it. If the cardinal is in favour, the pope will refuse to accept the nomination and force his ally to keep working.

 

There are obviously quite a few "retured" cardinals over 75 but not yet 80, so if Time is right, a few other supposed potential pontiffs might be out of the running.

[themaninblack 2,112]

Okay, Time thinks Arinze has no chance:

 

"Earlier this month Arinze, 76, retired from his top Vatican post, which for all intents and purposes ended any likelihood that he will ever be pontiff.

 

Once a "Prince of the Church" gives up his day-to-day assignments, he is typically thought to be out of the running for the top job."

 

- http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...1866786,00.html

 

 

The way I understand it works, cardinals can still vote until they are 80. However, they must retire from their roles at 75. It is up to the pope to decide to accept that retirement offer. If he wants to get rid of a cardinal, he will accept it. If the cardinal is in favour, the pope will refuse to accept the nomination and force his ally to keep working.

 

There are obviously quite a few "retured" cardinals over 75 but not yet 80, so if Time is right, a few other supposed potential pontiffs might be out of the running.

 

 

Welcome to the Deathlist (at last)

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Thanks, MiB.

[Windsor 2,142]

Thanks, MiB.

 

You do know that there are other threads though?

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Thanks, MiB.

 

You do know that there are other threads though?

 

G'day Your Majesty. Problem is I am not a Pommie, so I don't even know who "Gazza", Kerry Katona or Anna Wing are, let alone the collective states of their health. (Lowers voice to hushed whisper) In fact, I have to confess that, until I came here, I had never even heard of Mr Clive Dunn...

 

 

*****

 

Okay, so now back to our regular program of Cardinal updates. Following the above, I checked up on all the cardinals who had "retired" but were still of voting age. There are lots of them and I am too lazy to type all the names but I was looking for any who had retired early, which might indicate potential health problems but there didn't seem to be any fodder for us there.

 

In terms of chances of being elected the next pope, there are a few big names amongst the retired so, if Time Magazine is right, they are no longer in the running. Besides Arinze, these are:

 

Claudio Hummes - most popular of the South Americans, who was once very liberal but toned it down to conform when JP2 gained power. (Was the leading South American contender for Pope in 2005.)

 

Re - Italian leader of the paleoconservative faction, the main opposition to Ratzinger. (Big name - not literally since "Re" is only two letters. I'll get me coat....)

 

Ruini - powerful Italian who is, by his own admission, a "political animal." Also a contender for Pope last time but probably more of a behind the scenes person. Very cunning and slightly arrogant in interviews, belittling other opinions as "naive."

 

Miloslav Vlk - Czech who was a very rough outside chance to become Pope last time. Was a political prisoner in the Commie years.

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Not a cardinal but this bloke, Archbishop Faustino Sainz Muñoz, the Papal Nuncio to Great Britain, is retiring early due to ill health:

 

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2010/...-to-ill-health/

 

"His health has declined since he suffered a mild stroke in May.

 

The archbishop told the congregation: “Sadly, for medical reasons I find that I now need to return to Spain in order to continue my treatment and this means that, when my resignation is accepted by the Holy Father, perhaps in early December, I will be coming to the end of my time here as Apostolic Nuncio.""