dead Sheikh Hasan Nasrallah

[Guest iain]

UNconfirmed reports say that the leader of Hezbollah Hassan Nasrallah may have been killed in an Israeli air strike

 

late edit-seems it was just Israeli propoganda-he was just slightly injured and remains alive and well

[Octopus of Odstock 2,194]

UNconfirmed reports say that the leader of Hezbollah Hassan Nasrallah may have been killed in an Israeli air strike

 

Iain, the link you supply says nothing of the sort. His HQ was bombed, and he received some injuries. Bit of a difference between being injured & killed.

 

Bill & Ben were part of your childhood? That would make you about 60. I find that very hard to believe, somehow....

[Slave to the Grave 26]

UNconfirmed reports say that the leader of Hezbollah Hassan Nasrallah may have been killed in an Israeli air strike

 

Iain, the link you supply says nothing of the sort. His HQ was bombed, and he received some injuries. Bit of a difference between being injured & killed.

 

Bill & Ben were part of your childhood? That would make you about 60. I find that very hard to believe, somehow....

 

The original Flowerpot men ran from 1952 to 1970 so Iain probably wouldn't be that old. Perhaps he's referring to the new Flowerpot men which was introduced in 2000. This would make him anything between 10 and 20. Much more likely .

[Canadian Paul 97]

I couldn't find anyone who mentioned it, so I'll bring it up.

 

In the tradition of exploding insurgents, Hassan Nasbrallah, born 1960, is the leader of Hezbollah and most likely to be the next terrorist to be hunted down.

 

[Rant]

And don't get on me that he's not a terrorist. I'm exceedingly pissed off at what Israel is doing to Lebanon and its civilians, and when the Lebanese are fleeing their homes while Israelis sit and sun on the Tel Aviv beach, and when there are 10 times as many casualties - all of them civilians might I add - in the conflict on the Lebanese side, I can't quite see how any reasonable person can consider Israel's response "measured," unless they consider one Israeli life worth that of 10 Lebanese.

 

Having said that, Hezbollah did start this whole thing by provoking an angry beast (Olmert) who was just looking for an excuse to blow up as many Arabs as possible. So if he goes the way of Basayev and Zarqawi, I won't cry.

[/Rant]

 

Having ranted, Hassan Nasbrallah. Idea and Possibility for 2007.

[deadsox 894]

I couldn't find anyone who mentioned it, so I'll bring it up.

 

In the tradition of exploding insurgents, Hassan Nasbrallah, born 1960, is the leader of Hezbollah and most likely to be the next terrorist to be hunted down.

 

[Rant]

And don't get on me that he's not a terrorist. I'm exceedingly pissed off at what Israel is doing to Lebanon and its civilians, and when the Lebanese are fleeing their homes while Israelis sit and sun on the Tel Aviv beach, and when there are 10 times as many casualties - all of them civilians might I add - in the conflict on the Lebanese side, I can't quite see how any reasonable person can consider Israel's response "measured," unless they consider one Israeli life worth that of 10 Lebanese.

 

Having said that, Hezbollah did start this whole thing by provoking an angry beast (Olmert) who was just looking for an excuse to blow up as many Arabs as possible. So if he goes the way of Basayev and Zarqawi, I won't cry.

[/Rant]

 

Having ranted, Hassan Nasbrallah. Idea and Possibility for 2007.

 

I've never been a defender of the Israelis but I don't know what they're expected to do when Hezbollah launches missles at them with impunity from a country that either is unable or unwilling to stop them. Your comment about Israelis sunning themselves while Arabs are getting blown up is indicative of your prejudice on this issue. I don't understand why the Israeli response should be "measured". I approve of a more old fashioned idea. If your enemies are unwilling to talk peace and persist in attacking you, kill them. Let's hope Hassan doesn't make it to '07.

[TLC 9]

[Rant]

And don't get on me that he's not a terrorist. I'm exceedingly pissed off at what Israel is doing to Lebanon and its civilians, and when the Lebanese are fleeing their homes while Israelis sit and sun on the Tel Aviv beach, and when there are 10 times as many casualties - all of them civilians might I add - in the conflict on the Lebanese side, I can't quite see how any reasonable person can consider Israel's response "measured," unless they consider one Israeli life worth that of 10 Lebanese.

 

Having said that, Hezbollah did start this whole thing by provoking an angry beast (Olmert) who was just looking for an excuse to blow up as many Arabs as possible. So if he goes the way of Basayev and Zarqawi, I won't cry.

[/Rant]

I've never been a defender of the Israelis but I don't know what they're expected to do when Hezbollah launches missles at them with impunity from a country that either is unable or unwilling to stop them. Your comment about Israelis sunning themselves while Arabs are getting blown up is indicative of your prejudice on this issue. I don't understand why the Israeli response should be "measured". I approve of a more old fashioned idea. If your enemies are unwilling to talk peace and persist in attacking you, kill them. Let's hope Hassan doesn't make it to '07.

I don't wish to put words into CP's mouth (or anything else for that matter ), but I just felt like weighing in - windmilling my arms in the traditional manner if necessary - so here goes...

 

I don't know if you've read a lot of CP's posts, but of all DL'ers I'd say he is most likely to look at everything, weigh it up and think stuff through before putting his opinions into a post. That doesn't mean you have to agree with him of course, and I suppose the reference to Israelis sunning themselves seems a bit glib, but I think he was just trying to show the difference between life in most of Israel compared to most of the Lebanon at the moment. I don't see it as showing CP's prejudice or he'd probably not make a point of specifically calling Nasbrallah a terrorist.

 

As for the 'measured' response (or lack of it) I'd say that not only is it not a measured response (which I don't think you're denying) but I think it should be, which is where we disagree.

 

Considering most of the threat from surrounding Arab countries is made up of guerilla-style small moblie units, shelling civilian areas indiscriminately seems little more than an attempt to 'teach the Lebanese a lesson' for harbouring terrorists. It is extremely unlikely to harm Hezbollah to any degree, especially as Israeli intelligence within Lebanon is virtually non-existent. If anything, the murder of women & children & non-combatants who are less able to just uproot will make martyrs and encourage more people to suicide bomb, something that modern armies still haven't got to grips with if they ever will. Possibly one thing that should have been learnt by now is that traditional warfare does very little to check it, Iraq being a current example of that. So I reckon Isarael will just fuel the fire with their response, however justified some sort of response is.

I approve of a more old fashioned idea. If your enemies are unwilling to talk peace and persist in attacking you, kill them

That's a good idea when you

• know who the enemy are and
  
• actually take them out with the minimum of fuss and disruption/damage to everything and everyone else.
  

I'm not saying it's easy, but if the easy option is indiscriminate shelling perhaps some more thought is required. It's a bit like the equivalent of doing a smaller scale 'Dresden' which despite being 60 years ago was hotly disputed even then as to whether it was a valid tactic for fighting wars.

 

Imagine if the British had tried this tactic regarding Northern Ireland? Even without it, plenty of innocent people still got killed or jailed, sometimes even guilty people but with no proof, which is tempting but almost as bad. A large amount of the IRA used to operate from across the border in Eire, but I don't recall shelling the border areas being considered as an option because Dublin couldn't stop the attacks? I know the comparison is not exact (if they ever are) but it's the first one I could think of.

 

One day, I hope countries will stop using the incredibly advanced playground argument of 'but they started it' to justify more and more outrageous actions and responses, but I doubt it'll be in my lifetime.

 

'they say I'm a dreamer,

but I'm not the only one....'

 

Although I think Mr P. Oakey said it best: -

And who will have won

When the soldiers have gone

From the lebanon

The lebanon

 

Right, there's only so much I can keep re-editing this, here goes...

[Canadian Paul 97]

I don't know if you've read a lot of CP's posts, but of all DL'ers I'd say he is most likely to look at everything, weigh it up and think stuff through before putting his opinions into a post. That doesn't mean you have to agree with him of course, and I suppose the reference to Israelis sunning themselves seems a bit glib, but I think he was just trying to show the difference between life in most of Israel compared to most of the Lebanon at the moment. I don't see it as showing CP's prejudice or he'd probably not make a point of specifically calling Nasbrallah a terrorist.

 

I always read a variety of news sources before I take anyone's word for it, but nowhere did I ever see Israeis in Tel Aviv running from rockets or crying around burning rubble for dead family members. Many continued on with their daily activities including, which stands out as the most striking contrast, sunning on the beach.

 

I can't say the same for Haifa, of course. They are crying and running, which is why Hezbollah deserves to be squashed like a bug. I'm merely pointing out though, one should keep in mind that the majority of casualties in Israel are soldiers and Halibuts living in Lebanon (someone can check on that to be 100% sure, but I believe that's the case), whereas there's been not a single confirmed report of any dead Hezbollah fighters. And Lebanese casualties outnumber Israel's 10-1, thus it is in no ways measured.

 

I agree the sunning comment was a bit glib, but it is accurate.

 

Israel needs to defend itself and it needs to deal with Hezbollah, but the bombing of Lebanon from the air and the destruction of its economy, not to mention the new refugee problem it will no doubt create, did little, if anything, to damage Hezbollah, as evidenced by Nasbrallah's "we don't give a sh*t" attitude to the ceasefire.

 

I only brought this all up too, so that it doesn't look like I'm some closed-minded fool who would celebrate the death of any non-conventional Halibut. I merely wanted to point-out that he is, in fact, a Terrorist (which was proven more in the last message, not this, which was merely defending a statement said in the last message).

[Tempus Fugit 214]

Hezbollah can only exist because they have popular support from the majority in Southern Lebanon.

 

They are seen as the defenders of the state, having more men and arms than the official Lebanese army.

[Canadian Paul 97]

Hezbollah can only exist because they have popular support from the majority in Southern Lebanon.

 

They are seen as the defenders of the state, having more men and arms than the official Lebanese army.

 

It's a rock and a hard place for the people of Southern Lebanon. On one hand, they can support the government, who has a weak army and zero resources and can't particullarly keep Israel out of Southern Lebanon if it wanted to (I'm aware that they're purposely not sending the army against Israel at the moment to show that they don't support Hezbollah, but they most likely couldn't stop a ground invasion in any case). If they do that, they're not culpable for the terrorist activities of Hezbollah, but then they're forced to live under the threat of or (as was the case for 20 years) dirtectly under Israeli occupation. On the other hand, they can support Hezbollah which, admittedly, has lots of legitimate political and social programs for the people in the south and is more effective at combating occupation. In that case, however, they're lending their support to an organization which, in a large part, acts as a terrorist organization, no matter how much they choose to deny it.

 

It's bad either way but, and of course I'm not speaking from experience, it's probably worse to be occupied than to be branded a terrorist-supporter. In reality, the people of Southern Lebanon are (mostly) innocents who have little choice in the quality of people who rule over them.

[deadsox 894]

To TLC and Canadian Paul-

Your arguments are cogent and well reasoned. I do not mean to come off as an Israeli apologist because over the years I've criticized a lot of what they've done. It does seem to me that in the last few years, they've come to the position that they should be willing to talk with the Palestinians. Unfortunately, fifty years of living in refugeee camps has radicalized them to the point that there's little the Israelis can do to please them other than commit suicide. I totally agree that the carnage in Lebanon is horrible. The problem with "measured responses" is that nothing gets solved. The problem continues ad infinitum. The Lebanese will now have to decide whether it's in their best interest to curb Hezbollah or join them in fighting Israel. I believe that their best bet is to do away with such radical groups and strive once again to make their country the beautiful, cultured and peaceful one it was before factional strife (much of which can be laid at the door of Israel) ruined it.

[TLC 9]

To TLC and Canadian Paul-

Your arguments....

[snip]

....and peaceful one it was before factional strife (much of which can be laid at the door of Israel) ruined it.

Good stuff, I think essentially we're all pretty much in agreement, we just came at it from a few different angles. My angle yesterday was to get a bit too excited at the sight of my own typing; for further evidence see the long rambling Pete Doherty post I made yesterday, and I don't even give a toss either way about him.

Your arguments are cogent and well reasoned.

You did read my post didn't you? I don't think I've ever been accused of both of those things at the same time before. I shall presume that comment was mostly aimed at CP.

 

So, are we all friends again?

 

Unfortunately, as we all need to be in the same room to be able to link little fingers and sing the special 'make friends make friends never ever break friends...' song, we can't make it official, but this should do for now....

 

I challenge you to find anything cogent & well reasoned in this post. Good luck!

[Canadian Paul 97]

TLC summed up what I had to say. You're obviously an intelligent debator deadsox, I have no problem with your opinions/discussion. It was nice to get a bit of that off my chest too. I think ie+ knows better than me how cogent and well-reasoned my fellow Albertans are.

 

Funny, was I started this post, I had a good suggestion too to stay on topic, but now I've forgotten it. Ah well, I hope OoO doesn't miss out on Nasbrallah when he goes over his L-Z section of the list (I haven't checked to see if he's been added yet, apologies if he has). Whatever you think of him, I think he might make a good (and interesting) candidate.

[Octopus of Odstock 2,194]

Ah well, I hope OoO doesn't miss out on Nasbrallah when he goes over his L-Z section of the list (I haven't checked to see if he's been added yet, apologies if he has). Whatever you think of him, I think he might make a good (and interesting) candidate.

 

No, I won't miss him out. He's been added on to the file of suggestions L-Z to be added not on the list, along with the other DL candidates, etc.

[Cowboy Ronnie 78]

To TLC and Canadian Paul-

Your arguments are cogent and well reasoned. I do not mean to come off as an Israeli apologist because over the years I've criticized a lot of what they've done. It does seem to me that in the last few years, they've come to the position that they should be willing to talk with the Palestinians. Unfortunately, fifty years of living in refugeee camps has radicalized them to the point that there's little the Israelis can do to please them other than commit suicide. I totally agree that the carnage in Lebanon is horrible. The problem with "measured responses" is that nothing gets solved. The problem continues ad infinitum. The Lebanese will now have to decide whether it's in their best interest to curb Hezbollah or join them in fighting Israel. I believe that their best bet is to do away with such radical groups and strive once again to make their country the beautiful, cultured and peaceful one it was before factional strife (much of which can be laid at the door of Israel) ruined it.

 

Not sure quite where to post this, but it's the DL, so who cares anyway. I have a plan for Middle East peace. America and Britain hold their hands up and say, "OK, maybe we screwed up with the Israel thing 60 years ago. There had just been a war on and we needed somewhere for the Jews to go, they'd been drifting back to that part of the world anyway, so it seemed a good idea at the time." But tell the Israelis, "OK lads, time for another one of those exodus(es?) you do so well, and this time you're off....to Australia."

 

Oz is huge (7 1/2 million km sq), Israel's tiny (22,000 km sq), so you could still fit an Israel size state somewhere out on the West Coast North of Perth, and the Aussies would hardly miss the land. Plus they're always going on about how they'd like more people, and who better than an educated, hard working lot like the Israelis? There'd be some cultural issues, but if someone was able to pack up London Bridge and move it to Utah or wherever, surely the same could be done with the Wailing Wall and some other religiously important bits and bobs.

 

Seems like everyone wins - the Australians get an excellent population influx, and would start winning way more Nobel prizes than they have without making their sports teams too much better (which wouldn't be fair). The Israelis are a pragmatic lot and while the older generation might resist for a bit the young ones would see the bright future it offered. The Middle Eastern countries would surely appreciate the benevolent magnificence of such a gesture, look inwardly at their own problems, decide to work toward modernising their societies, give women the vote, make honour killings illegal, and allow their citizens to decide the form of government which works best for them. And the West could at last shrug off that particular white man's burden and get back to what it does best - making money, watching TV, flying around the world, eating good food, and getting drunk.

[Tuber Mirum 125]

Great plan, except that the aborigines would probably get all upset about someone else giving their land away to a bunch of foreigners, and would start firing rockets into the new Jewish State.

[Canadian Paul 97]

I remembered what my suggestion was going to be from earlier this morning, though I think there may already be a thread open on this topic (can't find it).

 

What about journalists in Lebanon? So far, we've only seen one death but it's being called the first, which makes one think. Though I've seen Israeli defense videos of their "precision," we've seen that it's not always as accurate as they'd like - even if they were sure shots, at least 1% of Smart Bombs will miss their targets regardless. And of course, I need not mention that Hezbollah probably doesn't give too much of a crap who it hits.

 

Everytime I see a CBC journalist reporting from Israel or Lebanon, it makes me think whether or not it will be their last, esepically since the Lebanon corps are based in Beirut, which is certainly not outside the normal line of fire.

 

I'd say they would definetely get an obit too, no matter which country they came from. The only problem is, of course, guessing just which one will be blown up. Just thought I'd throw that out there though.

 

While I'm at it, might as well throw the CBC's Beirut correspondent out there too...

 

 

Too bad they're not allowed to smile (which is also true on passports nowadays, which is strangely frustrating), otherwise I wager she'd be fairly attractive.

[Gunjaman5000 30]

Not sure quite where to post this, but it's the DL, so who cares anyway. I have a plan for Middle East peace.

 

Me too. Seal the borders, ban journalists.

[deadsox 894]

Alright then, enough of this politics (although it was just getting good). More important when discussing the Middle East is how my Death League players are doing. Ariel Sharon is my franchise player this year and seems to be getting close. Saddam is in the minors and if he stays on this hunger strike much longer, I may move him up to the majors. (My Death League has some rules like baseball teams). Does anyone think the Israelis will actually get Nasrallah soon? (I made a good call on Zarqawi and moved him up to the majors just in time).

[Tempus Fugit 214]

It helps to have all that high tech weaponry, supplied on very reasonable terms by the USA.

 

Hezbollah have fired a few thousand Katyusha rockets into Israel and managed to kill fewer people than the Israelis did with one well aimed bomb.

[Banshees Scream 110]

It helps when to have all that high tech weaponry, supplied on very reasonable terms by the USA.

 

Hezbollah have fired a few thousand Katyusha rockets into Israel and managed to kill fewer people than the Israelis did with one well aimed bomb.

 

Horrible aim and slow reaction must run within the Hezbollah blood. Personally though it is the first time in my entire life that I have ever heard of a Hezbollah.

[Banshees Scream 110]

 

This isn't an army, they are a bunch of clowns. They look like the french durning WW2, a couple of the guys look like a young Fidel Castro, and the rest just look like a couple of jews.

 

 

I didn't know there was a Hezbollah mafia. It looks like he is making some great speech. I also didn't know a christmas tree was there countrys symbol?

[Tempus Fugit 214]

 

This isn't an army, they are a bunch of clowns. They look like the french durning WW2, a couple of the guys look like a young Fidel Castro, and the rest just look like a couple of jews.

 

 

I didn't know there was a Hezbollah mafia. It looks like he is making some great speech. I also didn't know a christmas tree was there countrys symbol?

 

Banshee's promise me you'll never go into politics.

[Banshees Scream 110]

 

This isn't an army, they are a bunch of clowns. They look like the french durning WW2, a couple of the guys look like a young Fidel Castro, and the rest just look like a couple of jews.

 

 

I didn't know there was a Hezbollah mafia. It looks like he is making some great speech. I also didn't know a christmas tree was there countrys symbol?

 

Banshee's promise me you'll never go into politics.

 

I have skill to debate, But I was just making laughter out of these people. A political career has struck my mind once or twice, but I think my interests are elsewhere.

[Guest Marcus IV]

Sheikh Hassanub is a Jewish fellow. It's such a shame most of the uneduacted Palestinian people and Arabs so gullible. Socratical questionaing is required at all times!

 

http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sheikhhassanub7.jpg

[Tempus Fugit 214]

Israel no longer targetting Hassan Nasrallah, they don't want the bad publicity. Bit late for that really.