Political Discussions And Ranting Thread

[YoungWillz 20,227]

3 minutes ago, En Passant said:

 

As an MP belonging to a political party as opposed to a complete independent you are, like it or not, at least somewhat beholden to the party that supported you to get there. There may well on occasion be justifiable reasons to vote agains that party, as a matter of representing a particular constituency or even as a matter of personal conscience but this doesn't appear to be one of them. It looks like grandstanding.

 

As TQR rightly points out this is one of the things the party will doubtless be getting to in due course. It's far far too early to begin this sort of divisive behaviour when it achieves nothing.

 

Or simply abstain eh?

 

I never consider my opinions, I just spout 'em out , so there's that.

it's better than TOC though, def.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. Ha! These 7 MPs were wrong to vote in favour of something diametrically opposed to the manifesto. A six month suspension has given these few a major platform to air grievance against the leadership, instead of it being a tiny sideshow which would die out without a flicker.

 

The precedent is set. Labour have never been the party of unity that the Tories used to be back in the day. Ruling by diktat, suspension or even possible expulsion smacks of the old Soviet Union. 

 

Democracy, huh? Ah well.

[RoverAndOut 4,298]

20 minutes ago, YoungWillz said:

Starmer could simply have ignored such a minor rebellion when he has such a majority and moved on, claiming the high ground that he has already instigated a review. Seems nonsense to me. There is no doubt that these 7 MPs are voting against their own manifesto on which they were elected. Instead he has added heat to the situation and that seems unnnecessary at this time.

 

And this is the crux of the matter. He had 2 choices, neither of which was guaranteed to succeed or fail. He could have followed your advice, ignored the 7 who voted for the amendment, not made a big deal of it and satisfied himself that he has a 170-180 seat majority and doesn't need to worry about 7 of his backbenchers. But what message does that send to the 200+ new faces on the Labour backbenches? "If you don't like the government's approach, just vote against it, it's fine!" So next time, 40 MPs rebel. But again, it's only 40, what's the big deal? And the next time it's 100. And he has to deal with the scenario you posited.

 

So, he follows option 2: punishes the 7 by suspending them from the parliamentary party for a set period of time (not indefinitely) to show that defying the government when they give a clear instruction has consequences. This was not in the King's Speech. It was not in the Labour manifesto. It is not currently Labour Party policy. They were whipped to vote against it. They chose to ignore that. There are consequences. That sends a message to others who may be thinking of doing the same. They can vote with their conscience, they can make a symbolic vote  but they will be on the outside looking in and not part of the government. Let's see how many choose to take their chances next time. He's done this precisely to try and ward off your scenario of 100 rebels. And it wasn't as though others didn't find a middle ground: Abbott is as left-wing as they come, but she abstained and kept the whip. It's also consistent with his approach in Opposition.

 

Time will tell whether this comes back to bite him, but it's decisive and sets his stall out early. And I'll remind everyone again, they've been in power for 3 weeks! Give them a chance to do some of the things they have asked to do and then we'll see if the money and political will is there to change the 2-child limit. 

[En Passant 3,418]

Also, I suspect we're currently all a little* wary of party division concerns taking precedence over needs of the country. Can't imagine why .

Starmer and Labour leadership in general will be acutely aware of that.

 

So yes, stamp on it early, and stamp on it hard.

 

Anyway, I shall wait patiently for the next TOC response to be quoted, so I can raise my bp a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*for varying values of little, my personal value is MASSIVELY.

[TQR 13,936]

25 minutes ago, YoungWillz said:

And I do consider and detail my responses - equating that with one sentence opinion from other members which gain your ire are beneath you. 

 

C'mon, I gave you an 'almost' 

 

Ignoring rebellions doesn't always work. It's important in the early stages of Starmer's government to restore confidence in politics, and the way to do that is to firmly deal with potential sources of instability and conflict - let's face it, that's what the country has recently voted to end.

[YoungWillz 20,227]

We'll see. The two child cap is not the hill I would have chosen to stamp down hard on. (id I just say hard on?).

 

Interesting times ahead I guess. I promised as little mercy to Labour as I had for the Tories. And I am unanimous in that. I shall no doubt receive the ire of supporters in due course. But 3 weeks in and the fun has already started. 

[En Passant 3,418]

That Owen Jones in The Grauniad appears to agree with your view on this @YoungWillz.

I'm not really a fan, but alternatively I'm equally happy to draw attention to it even though I largely disagree with his predictably emotive take.

I often think some columnists are just people paid (well) to troll for a living. Clickbait draws the numbers. He's one of them.

 

I don't happen to think, "children deserve to live in poverty". As if that needed saying.

But you almost have to state that in order to disagree with these people. They avoid rational discourse.

[TQR 13,936]

6 minutes ago, En Passant said:

That Owen Jones in The Grauniad appears to agree with your view on this @YoungWillz.

 

Good lord. I'd like to officially take back my comparison between Willz' post and The Old Cremlin because to be compared to him AND Owen Jones in one day is far too harsh.

[En Passant 3,418]

50 minutes ago, TQR said:

 

Good lord. I'd like to officially take back my comparison between Willz' post and The Old Cremlin because to be compared to him AND Owen Jones in one day is far too harsh.

 

That's not exactly what I intended .

Perhaps I have to make that clear too. They can hold broadly similar opinions on a given subject without being declared as blood brothers.

The fact I personally disagree on this particular subject is neither here nor there really. My semi-rant at Jones should not be inferred as an attack on Wills, it isn't.

 

 

ETA: This sometime contributor to the same rag and now a Labour MP is more on the wavelength I'm coming from:

 

'Torsten Bell, the former head of the Resolution Foundation turned Labour MP, said: '

 

Quote

Britain’s longstanding economic problems could not be solved by economic growth alone.

His comments come amid a row over whether Labour should end the two-child benefit cap immediately, with seven MPs losing the whip on Tuesday night after voting for a Scottish National party amendment to do so.

Bell was not one of those to rebel, despite having criticised the cap both as an independent economist and as a Labour candidate.

Speaking to the Guardian about his book Great Britain?, Bell said: “Everybody in the labour movement thinks that a world where half of children in larger households are growing up in poverty isn’t what success looks like.”

But he defended his decision not to vote for the SNP amendment on Tuesday night, saying: “What matters, and has always been my focus, is actually reducing child poverty – not parliamentary game-playing.”

 

Full piece here for anyone not bored out of their minds already. And no, it doesn't mean I want to marry him either.

[YoungWillz 20,227]

Well. You nip to the shops to do your weekly and....

 

I've always had a thing for Owen Jones, strangely. Maybe a little to chatty for me. But then I've always a thing for Sebastian Payne as well. Oh the rows we would have.

 

Anyhow, I like to position myself somewhere in the middle of both of them. Given half the chance! 

[Master Obit 594]

29 minutes ago, YoungWillz said:

Well. You nip to the shops to do your weekly and....

 

I've always had a thing for Owen Jones, strangely. Maybe a little to chatty for me. But then I've always a thing for Sebastian Payne as well. Oh the rows we would have.

 

Anyhow, I like to position myself somewhere in the middle of both of them. Given half the chance! 

If I were you, I'd make sure I was facing away from Owen Jones in this arrangement. The guy's so full of shit that if it was the other way round I fear you'd end up with a very unpleasantly tinged member.

[TQR 13,936]

26 minutes ago, YoungWillz said:

I've always had a thing for Owen Jones, strangely. Maybe a little to chatty for me.

 

Oh believe me, a couple of minutes with him would be enough to put you off. Not met Payne, not that I particularly want to.

 

Give me Lewis Goodall and enough wine to change his gender preference though 

[En Passant 3,418]

On 21/07/2024 at 12:51, En Passant said:

'Owen Jones'? don't start me on yet another rant, this time ranking Grauniad journalists.

Actually do....

 

Simon Jenkins - privileged tosspot with a Nimby attitude to anything and everything. Last seen pacing areas around his Primrose Hill (North London) mansion seeking brownfield sites far enough away to build flats for the proles. The entire comments section is devoted to people very reasonably questioning why he is employed by The Guardian at all, should be at The Torygraph. Rating 0 (and struggled to make that).

 

Eva Wisebore - Hasn't written a thing that wasn't related to babies or children for about 2 years since she had one herself. Used to be boring, now boring and one dimensional. Must be related to somebody in charge, it's stealing a living. Rating 1.

 

Zoe Williams - Seems to do at least 50% of the work in that place and seeing as how she's never given a moments peace does a stirling job on any number of disparate subjects. Probably has to empty Wisebores waste paper basket on her day off. Rating  9.

 

Ok, I've got too tedious now, maybe I'll do some more later if you people are really unlucky.

 

 

Owen Jones.....Ach who needs an in depth analysis? Opinionated Twat. Rating 0

[Master Obit 594]

7 minutes ago, TQR said:

 

Oh believe me, a couple of minutes with him would be enough to put you off. Not met Payne, not that I particularly want to.

 

Give me Lewis Goodall and enough wine to change his gender preference though 

The main problem with Lewis Goodall is that he looks like the default mii on Wii Sports, and that behoves me to conclude that he is exceptionally dull. I reckon his favourite colour is beige.

[YoungWillz 20,227]

Tugendhat steps forward to contest for Tory leader.

[YoungWillz 20,227]

8 minutes ago, YoungWillz said:

Tugendhat steps forward to contest for Tory leader.

Talking of this Austrian immigrant family, both Tugsy's father and uncle are eminently obitable.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Tugendhat

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Tugendhat,_Baron_Tugendhat

 

What is it with Tories? So many of their prominent politicians come from immigrant stock. Austria wasn't even in the Empire.

 

Farage should have a field day with these guys. (Admittedly you have to back to the Huguenots for his stock , although the Germans are involved somewhere in the nineteenth century).

[maryportfuncity 10,331]

31 minutes ago, YoungWillz said:

Talking of this Austrian immigrant family, both Tugsy's father and uncle are eminently obitable.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Tugendhat

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Tugendhat,_Baron_Tugendhat

 

What is it with Tories? So many of their prominent politicians come from immigrant stock. Austria wasn't even in the Empire.

 

Farage should have a field day with these guys. (Admittedly you have to back to the Huguenots for his stock , although the Germans are involved somewhere in the nineteenth century).

 

 

I'll stand by an earlier point, to my mind he has leader of the opposition written all over him, as in the kinda politician who'd do such a job during an inconsequential time for his party and be booted out if and when they started looking functional again. I'm thinking some of the other candidates could do worse than let someone like him float in. Not that that's what will happen. I'm expecting one strongly right wing person will make the run off, and win. 

 

 

[YoungWillz 20,227]

1 minute ago, maryportfuncity said:

 

 

I'll stand by an earlier point, to my mind he has leader of the opposition written all over him, as in the kinda politician who'd do such a job during an inconsequential time for his party and be booted out if and when they started looking functional again. I'm thinking some of the other candidates could do worse than let someone like him float in. Not that that's what will happen. I'm expecting one strongly right wing person will make the run off, and win. 

 

 

Tugendhat - seen here thinking that one of the reporters reminds him of a dominatrix from Soho he once knew - and probably still does.

[Sod's Law 344]

1 hour ago, YoungWillz said:

Talking of this Austrian immigrant family, both Tugsy's father and uncle are eminently obitable.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Tugendhat

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Tugendhat,_Baron_Tugendhat

 

What is it with Tories? So many of their prominent politicians come from immigrant stock. Austria wasn't even in the Empire.

 

Farage should have a field day with these guys. (Admittedly you have to back to the Huguenots for his stock , although the Germans are involved somewhere in the nineteenth century).

Drawbridge mentality, plus a smug satisfaction in knowing their families were the 'good hard-working immigrants' who made it big in contrast to the 'good for nothing hoardes' who followed them. Of course, many right wing politicians with roots in migration (Tugendhat and Farage included) happen to come from families that were pretty well-to-do even back in the old country. 

[En Passant 3,418]

7 hours ago, YoungWillz said:

Tugonthat - seen here thinking that one of the reporters reminds him of a dominatrix from Soho he once knew - and probably still does.

 

[DCI Frank Burnside 3,751]

 

 

 

Thought he might be the only one who'd run on the basis of bringing the back from the far right and have some cop but nope jumps straight into it.

 

10 years in opposition at least

[TQR 13,936]

And there's Honest Bob running for leader too.

 

[YoungWillz 20,227]

16 minutes ago, TQR said:

And there's Honest Bob running for leader too.

 

I think Jenrick makes Boris Johnson look positively a saint.

 

His career for a lawyer is littered with dodgy dealings and rule-breaking, really from the day he was elected by overspending on his by-election campaign. There's so much wrong with this guy, I'm amazed he decided to run again, never mind for the leadership.

 

The scrutiny he will come under will be his undoing I think.

[TQR 13,936]

6 minutes ago, YoungWillz said:

There's so much wrong with this guy, I'm amazed he decided to run again, never mind for the leadership.

 

Comes down to his own complete arrogance and lack of self-awareness, combined with the Tory talent pool now being the last moisture droplets of an evaporating muddy puddle.

[Sod's Law 344]

3 hours ago, DCI Frank Burnside said:

 

 

 

Thought he might be the only one who'd run on the basis of bringing the back from the far right and have some cop but nope jumps straight into it.

 

10 years in opposition at least

Have to say... I'm disappointed in him. He's half French on his mother's side and holds French citizenship. You'd think if there was anyone left in the Tory party willing to stress common bonds with European allies, it would be him.

[RoverAndOut 4,298]

4 hours ago, DCI Frank Burnside said:

 

 

 

Thought he might be the only one who'd run on the basis of bringing the back from the far right and have some cop but nope jumps straight into it.

 

10 years in opposition at least

 

We can but hope he's playing the same game as Keir Starmer. Starmer had to talk the left's language to win the leadership and move the party closer to the centre to win the election. Tugendhat needs to talk the right's language to beat the loonies and bring in some common sense. Honestly doubt he could win without saying something about leaving the ECHR.