Formula 1 & Other Motor Racing

[TQR 12,862]

1 hour ago, RoverAndOut said:

 

So Lewis comes up smelling of roses again.  Double figures for championships unless his decline has truly set in and Charles can benefit instead.

It’s odd, this view that good things always just happen to him. That’s not the case. His time at McLaren saw success but he by no means had a dominant car for any of that. His gamble to go to Mercedes paid off within 2 years but not all of his career there was easy; he fended off Britney and Sebastian from 2014-19 with his nerve and his consistency, not his luck. And now look: he spent that sham 2021 season getting crashed into or fucked over by those in charge and he might as well have had a Unimog the last three years. The only time he’s been a lucky bugger really is 2019/20. Two years of his eighteen so far in F1. Newey being part of the team will help, but with Red Bull where they are, McLaren on their trajectory and Aston with their facility investment, Ferrari's success isn't by any stretch a foregone conclusion.

 

Charles is the best qualifier on the grid and it’s not even close, but race-wise, I don’t think he’ll stack up to Lewis. Carlos might’ve done, though.

[RoverAndOut 3,775]

29 minutes ago, TQR said:

It’s odd, this view that good things always just happen to him. That’s not the case. His time at McLaren saw success but he by no means had a dominant car for any of that. His gamble to go to Mercedes paid off within 2 years but not all of his career there was easy; he fended off Britney and Sebastian from 2014-19 with his nerve and his consistency, not his luck. And now look: he spent that sham 2021 season getting crashed into or fucked over by those in charge and he might as well have had a Unimog the last three years. The only time he’s been a lucky bugger really is 2019/20. Two years of his eighteen so far in F1. Newey being part of the team will help, but with Red Bull where they are, McLaren on their trajectory and Aston with their facility investment, Ferrari's success isn't by any stretch a foregone conclusion.

 

Charles is the best qualifier on the grid and it’s not even close, but race-wise, I don’t think he’ll stack up to Lewis. Carlos might’ve done, though.

 

He's the opposite of Alonso: Alonso usually picks the wrong time to join a team, Hamilton always seems to be there at the right time. 2007, while competitive between McLaren and Ferrari, that McLaren was the best car in the field, it was only the rivalry between Alonso and Hamilton that cost them, and it's still ridiculous to me that they both ended up one point shy of Raikkonen. 2008 should have been more comfortable than it was, although it was exciting early season as I recall with Kubica and the 2 Ferraris in the mix (Massa just missing out in the end). But, even then, he was cruising to the title in Brazil until the rain shower and then should have lost it, only to overtake Glock on the final corner. The 2009 McLaren was a dog, but development still meant it ended up as a race winning car by the end of the season. 2010-2012 the McLaren was a race winner but he was put under pressure from Button - wasn't there a season he was in a great championship position and his engine blew in Korea? 2010 there were 5 in it going into the final couple of races, of which Hamilton was one. He then took what seemingly looked like a risk by letting Lauda lure him to Mercedes for 2013: they'd won 1 race in 3 seasons. He joined and they flourished, McLaren took a nose dive. 2014-16 was an increasing Mercedes procession, and while Nico kept Lewis honest, realistically he wasn't in the same league. He knew he got lucky in 2016 and then retired before it could return to Lewis. 2017 and 2018 saw Lewis well clear of Bottas and now having to worry about Ferrari, but Ferrari were hopeless when it really mattered, either the drivers or the team snatching defeat from the jaws of victory time and time again (Raikkonen and Vettel taking each other out in Singapore anyone?). 2019 and 2020 was a breeze. By 2021, Red Bull had caught up to a point, but Lewis should have won that one as well probably (I'm not relitigating the season again: in my view Verstappen was taken out by Lewis at Silverstone, Verstappen took Lewis out at Monza, Lewis gained an advantage at the start in Abu Dhabi that was never given back, and then was robbed due incorrect procedures at the end). 2022 to 2024, Mercedes have gone off the boil, but it has somewhat proven the point that talent only takes you so far: had Alonso, Leclerc, Norris, maybe even Ricciardo in the mid-2010s been in the works Mercedes, they would almost certainly have won multiple championships. Instead, they've been up against the might of the Silver Arrows and been swept away. No denying the Red Bull is currently even more dominant than that Mercedes, but it's an interesting question how much Lewis can still do, as he's undoubtedly struggled in the Mercedes, even in competition with Russell. That said, I fully expect him to be a race winner for Ferrari.

 

In terms of the closest challengers to Red Bull in the next era, you have to put Ferrari at the front: the only team since the end of 2022 to beat Red Bull, and they've done it twice (so they're obviously getting rid of the guy that did it...). Add Adrian Newey's influence into the mix, and surely they'll be there or thereabouts if not next year, the year after. Without Newey's influence, it will be interesting to see how Red Bull develop going forward. You just have to look at Newey's track record: at March he turned a midfield team into a team who could lead grands prix (they should have won in France in 1990 or 1991 if their engines had held out). Moved to Williams and put them back in the mix for titles for the first time since the late 1980s - should have won in 1994 (Schumacher crashing into Hill), did win in 1996 and 1997, by which time Sir Frank had made the monumental mistake of falling out with him so he moved to McLaren. The result was back-to-back championships and multiple further race wins, albeit McLaren couldn't cope with the might of Schumacher and Ferrari (nearly won in 2003 with Raikkonen though). Joined Red Bull in 2005: the change of regulations for 2009 saw Red Bull go from midfield team to race winners and they nearly pipped Brawn and Button to the title. They then dominated for the next 4 years. Then Mercedes took up the mantle, but another set of regulation changes and he's back on top. What happens soon? More regulation changes. He's incredible. I hope I'm wrong, and I genuinely hope we can see a really competitive top 10 as you suggest, but history shows us one team ends up getting it more right than the others and that team sweeps all before it more often than not.

 

In summary, I think Hamilton's reputation for being lucky is down to joining Mercedes as they became a title winning team and leaving McLaren as they dropped way back - until Ricciardo won in Monza a couple of years ago, they hadn't won a race since Button in 2012! The concern is that he's done it again now, leaving Mercedes who can't rediscover their form and joining a competitive but not dominant Ferrari just as they put all the pieces in place. Time will tell.

[TQR 12,862]

58 minutes ago, RoverAndOut said:

He's the opposite of Alonso: Alonso usually picks the wrong time to join a team, Hamilton always seems to be there at the right time.

 

Alonso went to Renault in 2003. Double WDC with them by the end of 2006. He then went to McLaren in 2007, the year you claim they had the fastest car on the grid. Look how competitive Aston's car has been for him. Three good moves there. Ferrari will only be Hamilton's second move and we still don't know if it'll pay off or not.

 

1 hour ago, RoverAndOut said:

...it was only the rivalry between Alonso and Hamilton that cost them, and it's still ridiculous to me that they both ended up one point shy of Raikkonen.

 

My respect for Fernando Alonso is boundless, but you could tell that, riding high off his two titles, he could not take the fact that the newbie was at least as quick as him.

 

1 hour ago, RoverAndOut said:

2008 should have been more comfortable than it was...

 

Reaching there. It was a fiercely competitive season. The McLaren wasn't a dominant car.

 

<Lots of the middle bit was an admission that Hamilton managed to keep his head in the face of fierce competition where many others didn't, which is a credit to him rather than his luck>

 

1 hour ago, RoverAndOut said:

By 2021, Red Bull had caught up to a point, but Lewis should have won that one as well probably (I'm not relitigating the season again: in my view Verstappen was taken out by Lewis at Silverstone, Verstappen took Lewis out at Monza, Lewis gained an advantage at the start in Abu Dhabi that was never given back, and then was robbed due incorrect procedures at the end).

 

Bollocks. At Silverstone, Verstappen picked the outside line but they were alongside each other; the corner belonged to neither of them. Look at the footage, you'll see Verstappen attempt to cut across the front of Hamilton whose hands you can see keeping as tight as possible to the apex. Verstappen drove like a dirty piece of shit all year, highlights of which include Monza and the brake test at Jeddah. Masi et al fiddled the Safety Car procedure at the end. That season will always have an asterisk by it, and that's that.

 

 

I'm hopeful for the future. It'll be close. I'm a lifelong McLaren fan though so I'm hoping the current trajectory continues despite Ferrari setting themselves up brilliantly with Hamilton and Newey.

[RoverAndOut 3,775]

Just now, TQR said:

Alonso went to Renault in 2003. Double WDC with them by the end of 2006. He then went to McLaren in 2007, the year you claim they had the fastest car on the grid. Look how competitive Aston's car has been for him. Three good moves there. Ferrari will only be Hamilton's second move and we still don't know if it'll pay off or not.

 

Alonso was managed by Briatore, he was always going to Renault, and they weren't actually that competitive in 2001/2002 (although they proved to be in 2003 admittedly). The move to McLaren was well-timed, but he ran into Hamilton and we all know what happened next. Couldn't stay at McLaren, so moved back to Renault, but they were on the decline - still managed 2 wins though (the first in very controversial circumstances it turned out). Moved to Ferrari, regular frontrunners, who had nearly won the title in 2008 and were as likely as any to get to grips with the new regulations that Brawn and Red Bull had taken advantage of, but for much of his time there he was outperforming the car. Should have won the title in 2010, got stuck behind Petrov in Abu Dhabi. The fact he came so close in 2012 in a car that was probably 5th fastest on the grid was astonishing. 2 more uncompetitive years, so moved to McLaren - looked like an exciting move - the return of McLaren-Honda! Except the Honda engine took ages to get up to speed and, once it did (with Red Bull), McLaren discovered their aerodynamics were shit too, which is why the car was so slow, whatever Alonso tried to do. Went away and won Le Mans, had half a shot in his first year at the Indy 500 too until his car broke. Came back to Renault/Alpine who rarely gave him a front-running car, just the odd podium (plus helping his teammate win in Hungary by holding Hamilton up). The move to Aston Martin has definitely been a success, but it's not put him in a race winning car (yet), just a competitive car (his team cost him the win in Monaco last year, despite what he says). He's one of the best drivers on the grid and has been for 20 years and he hasn't been in a title-contending car since, arguably, 2010 or a race winning car since 2014.

 

Just now, TQR said:

My respect for Fernando Alonso is boundless, but you could tell that, riding high off his two titles, he could not take the fact that the newbie was at least as quick as him.

 

Agreed. He went to McLaren as undisputed Number 1. Lewis was quick enough to refuse to accept that. Ron Dennis thought "Oh no, not again" and dealt with it about as well as he dealt with Prost and Senna.

 

Just now, TQR said:

Reaching there. It was a fiercely competitive season. The McLaren wasn't a dominant car.

 

Ok, not dominant but certainly title-contending. For all the competitiveness (and I have a lot of fondness for 2008, it was a great season, although I'd have preferred it if Glock had stayed ahead to the line and Daddy Massa hadn't been told to stop celebrating), Kubica won one race all season, Raikkonen (defending champion) didn't win after the 4th race of the year. It essentially came down to Massa v Hamilton - Lewis got more poles than anybody and won 5 times to Massa's 6 (although Lewis finished ahead of him in Belgium only to be penalised). And he was comfortably winning the title before the rain in Brazil.

 

Just now, TQR said:

<Lots of the middle bit was an admission that Hamilton managed to keep his head in the face of fierce competition where many others didn't, which is a credit to him rather than his luck>

 

He was (is?) an excellent driver, but he was fortunate to be in the class of the field throughout that period. He was a better driver than Rosberg throughout their time together and Mercedes were a much more professional outfit than Ferrari in the battles between Hamilton and Vettel (Vettel went off the boil too). 

 

Just now, TQR said:

Bollocks. At Silverstone, Verstappen picked the outside line but they were alongside each other; the corner belonged to neither of them. Look at the footage, you'll see Verstappen attempt to cut across the front of Hamilton whose hands you can see keeping as tight as possible to the apex. Verstappen drove like a dirty piece of shit all year, highlights of which include Monza and the brake test at Jeddah. Masi et al fiddled the Safety Car procedure at the end. That season will always have an asterisk by it, and that's that.

 

Watched the on board multiple times over the years, Hamilton had room on the inside and was never ahead of Verstappen, Verstappen took the line of the corner, Hamilton was never going to get through there (Verstappen on the outside could carry more speed). Coming in from that tight an angle, Hamilton always knew he'd drift out, he was always going to have understeer and that would take him into Verstappen - he clearly decided if contact happened it happened (he was well behind in the championship, so what's he got to lose?). There's a great video from a guy on Youtube dissecting it (he's very fair, did brilliant videos - he's stopped now for some reason - and doesn't entirely support my point of view, but certainly lays out the facts pretty clearly) which is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enVOLoPzfrE

Verstappen couldn't care less if there's an asterisk, and I was just glad to see something different after 6 titles in 7 years.

 

Just now, TQR said:

I'm hopeful for the future. It'll be close. I'm a lifelong McLaren fan though so I'm hoping the current trajectory continues despite Ferrari setting themselves up brilliantly with Hamilton and Newey.

 

We were promised closer racing last year and Red Bull won 21 out of 22 races. Admittedly, take Red Bull out of the equation and it was a thrilling season, and this season is similarly shaping up to be exciting. But it's no good being close if there's one team taking the top 2 spots most races, certainly if they're not even a close match for each other. My favourite four seasons off the top of my head are 2003 (Schumacher v Raikkonen v Montoya), 2008 (Hamilton v Ferrari v Kubica), 2010 (10 leadership changes over the course of the season, Vettel led only once - after the final race) and 2012 (7 winners in the first 7 races and the season continued similarly). All of them you had no idea who would win on any given weekend. For the past decade we've known either a Mercedes was probably going to win or (now) a Red Bull is likely to win. The best races are usually the ones where that doesn't happen. I, too, have loved McLaren since the days of Mika Hakkinen and it's been painful how far they've fallen, but with Norris and Piastri, they've got a great base and Andrea Stella has made a huge difference. Hope the upgrade in Miami can put them a bit closer. As for the future, we'll find out soon enough - still lots to be decided as to who's where first!

[Charlotte's Controller 185]

With all of the greats they were lucky, lucky to find themselves in the best teams help develop the best setups and get the best pay. Good drivers are hired by the best teams to develop cars further, cream rises to the top good teams get the cream. Hamilton has made things look easy for many years, you still need a decent car because it is a marginal sport.

The sport is car / team and driver.everything at the top is very tight.

[DCI Frank Burnside 3,114]

 

 

Can't believe that it's 30 years ago. And it'll be Senna's one tomorrow

[DCI Frank Burnside 3,114]

 

[RoverAndOut 3,775]

 

A romantic return to where the winning began? Surely not. They can't afford him and they don't have the resources to compete at the front, even with a Newey designed masterpiece. If he wasn't interested in Aston, he's not interested in Williams. It'll be Ferrari, just a question of when it's announced.

[DCI Frank Burnside 3,114]

I'd be gobsmacked if it's Williams 

 

Vowels probably just chancing his arm. If you don't ask you won't know etc...

[DCI Frank Burnside 3,114]

Norris wins in Miami 

 

 

What's the betting Trump tries to claim some sort of credit after being in the McLaren garage earlier 

[RoverAndOut 3,775]

Superb win by Lando, won it on pace. Once Perez got out of the way, that McLaren just flew. Safety Car helped, but think he'd have been close either way. Great to see how popular he is with the other drivers and exciting now to see whether this could genuinely be the start of a competitive fight at the front.

[TQR 12,862]

Lifelong McLaren fan here. I'm chuffed to bits. Great race overall, and what an awesome drive from Lando, so well deserved. He's gradually becoming one of the few truly complete drivers. Awesome performance from Oscar too, was gutted about the damage he picked up. He stuck with the front-running Red Bull and held the Ferraris back.

 

Loved that Zak Brown and Andrea Stella paid tribute to Gil de Ferran too.

[DCI Frank Burnside 3,114]

Only just occuring to me now when I saw the team photo how apt that it was McLaren that Trump visited 

[RoverAndOut 3,775]

1 hour ago, DCI Frank Burnside said:

Only just occuring to me now when I saw the team photo how apt that it was McLaren that Trump visited 

 

Oh yeah, I'd already clocked the orange President visited the orange team. Unfortunate association but I suppose if the former President wants to come, you can't really say no. Can't stop smiling that Lando's now a race winner. He's deserved it so much, consistently outperformed the car and now the car's catching up his abilities, the sky is the limit. So excited to see what the rest of the season has in store (watch Max crush the field at Imola. )

[DCI Frank Burnside 3,114]

 

23 hours ago, DCI Frank Burnside said:

Norris wins in Miami 

 

 

What's the betting Trump tries to claim some sort of credit after being in the McLaren garage earlier 

 

I was only half joking but 

[RoverAndOut 3,775]

1 hour ago, DCI Frank Burnside said:

 

 

I was only half joking but 

 

Oh, he was always going to piggyback on the win. You can see from Lando's face how much he's going through the motions though.

[DCI Frank Burnside 3,114]

 

[RoverAndOut 3,775]

Great action. Wish the cars were smaller and more closely matched today so we could get back to this. I'll always love that Prost was a pall bearer at Senna's funeral. After all the shouting and fury, the respect and friendship came. I'm sure I've read that Senna pleaded with Prost to come back in 1994 after he'd retired.

[DCI Frank Burnside 3,114]

 

[RoverAndOut 3,775]

1 hour ago, DCI Frank Burnside said:

 

Looks nice. Hope it does look like this, and not like the cop-out blue Ferrari we were promised a few weeks ago.

[gcreptile 10,330]

Drag Racing obit risk Lizzy Musi has an update on her breast cancer:

https://dragillustrated.com/lizzy-musi-announces-hiatus-from-street-outlaws-no-prep-kings-update-on-cancer-journey/

 

She now wants to go to Germany because health care in America is too limited...  she has raced until very recently but now takes a hiatus. 

[DCI Frank Burnside 3,114]

Looking at the F2 on Sky and Martin Brundle's son is on comms and it's mad how much he sounds like his old man