one dead Gerry Adams & Martin McGuinness

[maryportfuncity 10,700]

Sinn Fein and the IRA are facing some tough challenges. Given the failure of the peace process last year it looks like they can only achieve peace by making serious changes, like turning in some known murderers. For all the talk about peace it's obvious to many that there is a hardcore in the IRA and other paramilitary groups who've been useful because they love the killing and violence. These people might have talked about a cause but their real interest was the respect and fear they generated in their communities and the enjoyment of the worst violence. At the extreme end terrorist and paramilitary groups harbour full-blown criminal psychopaths who are allowed to hone their talents to a frightening degree.

If the Republican leaders now want to cut them loose surely it's possible that elements of the IRA and Sinn Fein will turn on each other. Martin McGuinness was once named by The Cook Report TV show as IRA Chief of Staff. The programme challenged him to sue them and said they'd take their evidence to court. McGuinness did nothing.

I wonder how some of the hardest men in the IRA view him and Gerry Adams now.

[Mortician 2]

As they've both been named by the Irish Republic's Justice Minister as being members of the IRA Army Council and McGuinness has admitted being Chief in (London)Derry in the 1970's I suspect that if they were bumped off by the RA then it could be considered suicide.

 

The problem for all the paramilitaries is that they're used to power. It takes a brave person to give up this power; especially as legitimate politics might not give you the control you crave. Therefore the current impasse, with a veneer of legitimacy over a basis of feudal control of sectarian areas, is not going to change easily.

 

As for Adams cutting his links with the IRA; it needs you to believe that Sein Fein is not the same organisation (it is), that Republicans en masse would support Sein Fein without the IRA's backing / threat and that moderate Protestants would move into the middle ground.

 

Does not seem likely, and whatever you feel about Adams, he is not stupid and therefore he'll stick with the status quo and wait for the Loyalists to do something stupid to take the pressure off...

[Tuber Mirum 126]

I suspect the death of Ian Paisley will be the next event to make a significant difference in Northern Ireland. Stubborn old git that he is, once he is out of the way the IRA is more likely to take a more conciliatory position.

[Josco 49]

I suspect the death of Ian Paisley will be the next event to make a significant difference in Northern Ireland. Stubborn old git that he is, once he is out of the way the IRA is more likely to take a more conciliatory position.

Ha!

[Tuber Mirum 126]

I suspect the death of Ian Paisley will be the next event to make a significant difference in Northern Ireland. Stubborn old git that he is, once he is out of the way the IRA is more likely to take a more conciliatory position.

Ha!

Disagree, Mr Josco?

 

Fair enough. Actually I didn't mean The IRA, I meant Sin Feinn.

Of coures they are all a bunch of hypocrites, just like the rest of us, but my (possibly mistaken) impression is that Paisley is more obstructive to progressive negotiation than the others.

 

Look at the progress in Palestine since Arafat died, just because the Israelis don't have to negotiate any more with somebody they can't stand. Of course the Americans will screw it up again. Probably.

[Josco 49]

Initially the "Ha!" was a snort of derision, in that I did disagree but it is such a complex subject that I am not sure what opinion to hold, if any. I do think that the thugs in the IRA (and those that have moved into the 'respectable' Sin Feinn) so enjoy their ill-gotten power that they will be loathe relinquishing it.

 

What astounds me is that they seem to be immune to the civil laws that govern the rest of us. If a few cronies and I armed ourselves and attempted to force the English* parliament to grant independence for Yorkshire the police would be at my door in no time. Yet in NI they run a huge criminal empire with total impunity while mouthing platitudes for independence. Aside from murder, beatings and bank robbery they manage a sophisicated smuggling operation, but Mr Bliar still gives them more concessions. Are we all missing something? Why do we condone it?

 

 

 

*English in name, Scottish in reality.

[Tuber Mirum 126]

If a few cronies and I armed ourselves and attempted to force the English* parliament to grant independence for Yorkshire the police would be at my door in no time. Yet in NI they run a huge criminal empire with total impunity while mouthing platitudes for independence. Aside from murder, beatings and bank robbery they manage a sophisicated smuggling operation, but Mr Bliar still gives them more concessions. Are we all missing something? Why do we condone it?

 

 

 

*English in name, Scottish in reality.

It could be an awareness of historical guilt.

 

If Yorkshire, like Ireland had been colonised and exploited by the English, then you would be sure to find much more support for the Josco's Yorkshire Freedom Army or whatever.

 

We are brainwashed to forget that acts of brutality and terrorism, though rarely justifiable, tend to be motivated by some genuine (and often very severe) grievance or injustice.

 

Nobody volunteers for a dangerous mission just because there is nothing good on telly that morning, for example.

 

One makes one's own bed, and then one lies in it. As Mr Blair knows, and Mr Bush would keep from us.

[Josco 49]

It could be an awareness of historical guilt.

 

Good point Mr Notapotato(e), but how long is one allowed to wallow in grief for alleged historical slights. I did some time in an Irish Regiment and was amazed that they still held a grudge over the 'Battle of the Boyne' in 1690. Is it not time to forgive and forget, move on and get over it? Should I start a bombing campaign in Italy in revenge for the Roman invasion of my country? History should be used as a lesson for the future, not as a cudgel with which to beat the present.

Josco's Yorkshire Freedom Army, (JYFA);

an inchoate idea whose time will come.

[Tuber Mirum 126]

Quite.

 

Without wanting to anthropomorphise Tony Blair more than is strictly necessary, he seems to be one of the first PM's to have enough gumption to admit that Ireland should be given back to the Irish to mess up by themselves as they see fit. Which is no doubt what will happen one day.

 

It is at times like this that I wish I had a bottle of Hendrick's.

[Cerberus 304]

Has anyone thought of just asking the people of Northern Ireland what they want? To remain part of the UK or become part of the Republic of Ireland? It couldn't be that difficult to organise a referendum, could it?

 

Though I admit it could leave us with the worst case scenario of a 51%/49% vote, in which both sides would claim victory.

 

I'm sure this approach has been considered before, I just wondered what the arguments were for not trying it.

[Mortician 2]

Has anyone thought of just asking the people of Northern Ireland what they want? To remain part of the UK or become part of the Republic of Ireland? It couldn't be that difficult to organise a referendum, could it?

 

Though I admit it could leave us with the worst case scenario of a 51%/49% vote, in which both sides would claim victory.

 

I'm sure this approach has been considered before, I just wondered what the arguments were for not trying it.

Fine theorectical approach, unfortunately no one will agree the scope of the referendum.

 

The Republicans would want a whole of Ireland vote, with the Unionists restricting the vote purely to the north. Traditionally the 2 approaches would guarantee a vote in either direction.

 

It might be different now, as the Irish Republic has become so economically successful they might not want the bloody (literally) basket case of the north buggering up their successful country.

[Magere Hein 1,400]

It could be an awareness of historical guilt.

 

Good point Mr Notapotato(e), but how long is one allowed to wallow in grief for alleged historical slights. I did some time in an Irish Regiment and was amazed that they still held a grudge over the 'Battle of the Boyne' in 1690. Is it not time to forgive and forget, move on and get over it? Should I start a bombing campaign in Italy in revenge for the Roman invasion of my country? History should be used as a lesson for the future, not as a cudgel with which to beat the present.

In my life I've met quite a few Dutch who avoided Germany and Germans like the plague because of that unfortunate incident in 1940-1945. Formal relations between the Netherlands and Germany were restored soon after 1948, however, and hostilities are limited to football matches, both on the pitch and outside the stadium.

 

We now exact our revenge by selling the Germans vegetables and flowers.

 

regards,

Hein

[Slave to the Grave 26]

Has anyone thought of just asking the people of Northern Ireland what they want? To remain part of the UK or become part of the Republic of Ireland? It couldn't be that difficult to organise a referendum, could it?

 

Though I admit it could leave us with the worst case scenario of a 51%/49% vote, in which both sides would claim victory.

 

I'm sure this approach has been considered before, I just wondered what the arguments were for not trying it.

It is assumed that the Protestant majority in Ulster would vote to remain part of the United Kingdom. They (the Protestants) will remain the majority until the Catholics eventually outbreed them. When there is a Catholic (mainly nationalist) majority a united Ireland will surely follow.

[Captain Oates 21]

........When there is a Catholic (mainly nationalist) majority a united Ireland will surely follow.

Do you really think that would happen?

 

I suppose the die-hard protestants could gradually be forced (democratically!) into an ever-smaller geographical area and eventually dropped off into the sea, like fleas off the end of a dog's nose.

[Tuber Mirum 126]

We now exact our revenge by selling the Germans vegetables and flowers.

Not to mention driving slowly and obstructively up and down the A61 Autobahn with their caravans.

 

If Ireland were put to the vote, then the occupying power, which is in the minority if one takes Ireland as a whole, would lose out. Same sort of thing as in South Africa. And probably a few other places I can't think of at the minute.

 

Seeing how Ireland is quite a nice place with a fairly strong economy, and Northern Ireland isn't, it should theoretically be an attractive proposition for NI to become irish.

 

Is being British really such a great privilege?

[Josco 49]

Is being British really such a great privilege?

 

Not any more, if it ever was. I can only forsee a slow decline to obscurity.

[maryportfuncity 10,700]

Adams goes public about the IRA laying down their arms again!

 

I.e. wouldn't it be nice if all the criminal psychopaths and gangsters started to 'do' politics.

 

The man has earned respect from republicans but he's asking a lot of some dangerous nutters these days. You never know.....

[Guest One Man Jury]

I.e. wouldn't it be nice if all the criminal psychopaths and gangsters started to 'do' politics.

Never heard of Bush, Blair or Mugabe then!

[maryportfuncity 10,700]

Think you're missing the point -OMJ - the odd criminal psycho does 'do' politics but I'm making the point that Gerry Adams repeatedly suggesting this to the hard-core in Northern Ireland is going to piss some people off big time. They know where he lives, where McGuinness lives and - certainly in the case of McGuinness - what he's done.

 

Some in the paramilitaries are gangsters and psychos who've had a good time indulging their trades, they don't want to change and might get terminally angry with someone pressuring them in this direction.

 

Personally speaking, I hope they don't because peace in Northern Ireland is worth achieving. But - hey - this is the deathlist and it's fair to say that Adams and McGuinness are more likely to die violently as a result of the present Sinn Fein statements.

[Paul Bearer 6,135]

As long as there are politicians like McGuinness, Adams and Paisley, and their moteley crew around with their one track mind and refusal to take their blinkers off and look at the bigger picture, there will never be true peace in N.I.

[Tuber Mirum 126]

As long as there are politicians like McGuinness, Adams and Paisley, and their moteley crew around with their one track mind and refusal to take their blinkers off and look at the bigger picture, there will never be true peace in N.I.

Exactly. That's why I said I believe that Paisley's death will be the necessary first step to some kind of agreement for peace.

[Guest Guest]

I suspect the death of Ian Paisley will be the next event to make a significant difference in Northern Ireland. Stubborn old git that he is, once he is out of the way the IRA is more likely to take a more conciliatory position.

In fairness Paisleys party has done very well in recent elections and will again on may 5..Paisleys successor therefore will have a madate to continue their hardline stance,which seems to be justified given recent events.

[Paul Bearer 6,135]

which seems to be justified given recent events.

 

Namely?

[faustus 9]

It's not about so called 'Hard men' or 'Respect'. it's about who controls the drugs & crime in general...They are just gangsters & always have been....

[maryportfuncity 10,700]

I know I kicked off a thread about these two ages ago but the latest peace statement ups the stakes. Some of the IRA are gangsters running local rackets for financial gain and enjoying their hard man status in local communities. These people have just been ordered to work by exclusively peaceful means. I don't see the massive Sinn Fein re-training scheme to turn murderous thugs with psychopathic traits into pleasant local government types and in some cases that's the level of change they're demanding.

 

McGuinness in particular is something of an ambivalent figure to the rank and file, having risen from the active end of the ranks to hang around with politicians.

 

Good outside bets the pair of them.