J051e Gr0ve

[Godot 149]

You have not commented on one point that I've made. Instead, you've resorted to personal attacks. I know your type. I've defied you and you believe, because I'm younger than you, that you automatically win, so you can spit on me instead of confronting me. That's not how it works sir. I'm very open in this debate, but my openness is to rationality, not to emotive and personal attacks.

 

(By the way, this all seems to be based on the assumption that I've chosen this girl for my pool which I haven't)

 

P.S. When previewing this post, I read your other one. Here's an article on Goodwin's Law. It applies here because the Nazis took an active part in killing their victims, whereas choosing or lack of choosing in no way affects what will happen to her.

 

Now what's all this about Paul? I'm not meaning to talk down to you as a student although I admit that I may have taken advantage of your status to deliver a few below the belt punches in response to your own. I respect your intelligence and indeed your powers of argument. Goodwin's Law is quite enlightening. But it's symptomatic of the games that are played in debates.

 

You know my type do you? I don't think so.

 

I'm not marking your dissertation. I'm not trying to catch you out or win an argument. There are no winners in this one. But, with respect to student behaviours, this is not a late night college debate or a game of verbal chess. This is a very public and increasingly well known forum playing - yes, literally playing - with people's lives. I have stated that I think that Josie Grove's is a life that should not be subject to either DL or DDP consideration. I think there should be an off-limits rule for those under the age of 18.

[Windsor 2,233]

I have stated that I think that Josie Grove's is a life that should not be subject to either DL or DDP consideration.

 

Why?

The revamp of the DDP rules seems to make it clear that they younger the better (the Gary Glitter theory(trying to keep up the intellectual bullshit).

Rules are rules. As much as I dislike the new DDP rules, they state that she is good for the running.

[Godot 149]

She's going on my list.

At the end of the day, she has brought attention to herself by not having the treatment.

 

There is also a chance that she will be listing herself on her own DDP.

You are a ruthless man, Windsor. But who can begrudge you the points?

Windsor I refer you to the comment made earlier by the Pook after some well balanced remarks. Take your dismal points and brand them on to your black heart.

[CarolAnn 926]

I'm not marking your dissertation. I'm not trying to catch you out or win an argument. There are no winners in this one. But, with respect to student behaviours, this is not a late night college debate or a game of verbal chess. This is a very public and increasingly well known forum playing - yes, literally playing - with people's lives. I have stated that I think that Josie Grove's is a life that should not be subject to either DL or DDP consideration. I think there should be an off-limits rule for those under the age of 18.

 

I don't understand how this forum - or any other death pool - plays with people's lives. Nothing we do or don't do directly affects the physical well being of any person we choose to include.

 

I have a difficulty with saying that a 16 year old who has cancer and has chosen to stop treatment but has done nothing for the world's good is more valuable than a 60 year old who has spent his entire life working for the betterment of his fellow man. The life of the 16 year old in potentia is only speculation - the life of the 60 year old is a matter of public record which then gives a good idea of what that person could be capable of achieving in the future.

 

Sick children are sad, but hardly uncommon. Sick children who martyr themselves are touching. Plenty of people in other walks of life also stop painful treatments that keep them alive but we don't hear about them because they aren't newsworthy. My question is whether we are any worse than the mainstream media selling papers and advertisements based on Josie's martyrdom.

 

Perhaps the problem is more the thought of having to explain to a 16 year old why some people are betting - whether with money or intellectually - on her dying in the next 12 months than explaining the same to the 60 year old. There are plenty of adults out there who think our pasttime is sick and depraved. I don't think the 16 year old would have any monopoly on not understanding our motivations or by being hurt by them.

 

Having said that, I truly do understand your position, Godot, and I believe you should do what you think is right. However, I don't believe it's as black and white as you make it and I don't believe that anyone who does list her is a horrible person unworthy of my acquaintance or conversation.

 

All of our lives are played with all the time by governments, corporations, and every other driver on the roads. It's part of living in interesting times.

[Octopus of Odstock 2,187]

But I think you can be assured that your sorry little arse isn't worth it. Josie Grove is bigger in every way than you or I could ever be.

 

So was Ross Davidson, but that didn't stop you, Mr "Morally Squeaky Clean" "laughing at his demise and taking the points did it? Or naming a cancer-ridden team in the first place?

 

Thought not. What a hypocrite you are Godot.

 

 

If you, a journalist, I believe, of all trades, represent the so-called "moral majority", then I'm glad I'm not in it.

 

For what's worth, essentially, you have a very good, fair point. Essentially, I am against even under 21's being picked. There could well be, or certainly, have been genuine valid and interesting debate on this.

 

But that was blown apart straight out. Surely your argument can be put forward without personal insults left right & centre, and comparing members of DL to SS officers, which considering some of our ancestry, is possibly a more nastier thing to come out with as a taunt then naming Ms Grove on the DDP.

 

I'd also listen to your argument rationally if you were say, a ranter, or detached from this site. That you are even on this site, and have chosen a cancer-hit team in the past smacks of double standards.

 

Yes, I know I've picked Miss Grove. I picked Mr Davidson, too. But crucially, I don't believe I'm better than everyone else here, and secondly, I also don't resort to personal insults to castigate an entire forum of posters.

 

 

The question you have to ask, is why did you come back to this site earlier this year if it's all so morally repugnant?

 

 

My argument has moved on from naming Miss Grove (which I am reconsidering simply due to the hassle of it all) to you appointing yourself some kind of "DL Moral Crusader", whiter than white.

[Guest xxxxxxxxxx]

take this off here you F*****g inconsiderate morons..when you google her name this pointless sight comes up first on the list, i'm a very close relation to josie grove and i cant believe you have nothing better to do with your time you F*****g assholes.

[Guest xxxxxxxxxx]

Why don't you lot get off your high horses. Your making a big deal about nothing.

 

Boo hoo - she's 16 and she's dying. sh*t happens.

 

She's made herself famous by choosing to not have any treatment. To further this she has now sold herself out to the press.

 

Just because she is dying, it does not make her any better than me or anyone else for that matter. Some people really go far while trying to take the moral highground.

 

No need for essays. No need for passionate pleas. Put her on or leave her off your DDPs - your choice. She does not qualify for the DL so its not really an issue here. She does qualify for the DDP thus it's the players choice.

 

Now good day!

 

PS. If I get cancer does that make me better than everyone else?

you pointless excuse for a person. she did not sell her story. she did not contact the press,and she has not denied treatment ..there isnt anything left she can take apart from morphine which she can take at home her social worker has started all this circus up. why are you even discussing this? yes sh*t happens. when it happens to your own family then youll know why twats like you really piss people off.

[honez 79]

when you google her name this pointless sight comes up first on the list, i'm a very close relation to j0sie gr0ve and i cant believe you have nothing better to do with your time

I can't believe you've got nothing better to do than Google her name.

[themaninblack 2,112]

Josie Grove is bigger in every way than you or I could ever be.

 

How can you say in broad brush strokes that a regular contributor to this forum could never be bigger in any way with some one who has just made a life style choice (all-be it a huge one in that of not fighting a terminal illness) since using ones full life and energy to do wonderful good for others (Jane Tomlinson) could very much be much more news worthy and noted as being "bigger" in any number of ways.

 

 

I guess my comments were based on what I have read from CP and what I know of myself. I've read through the arguments you have been making and understand where you (and others) are coming from. I'm not arguing with the logic, but with the morality (or absence of it) behind that logic.

 

It's the moral escapism of the SS who believed that by taking a uniform and swearing an oath they were absolved from moral judgements because, when they shot, gassed or hanged a trainload of Jews, they were taking an objective stance (obeying orders), playing by the rules to which they subscribed when they joined.

 

I'm sure there were SS men who felt somewhat uneasy about the things that they did but the rules and codes that governed their behaviour were sufficiently straightforward for them to defray their guilt. Their collective solidarity enabled them to absolve themselves of their crimes. For the SS too, deaths earned kudos such as promotion and medals. Points win prizes in many walks of life.

 

 

With respect Godot, if you take such a line, why are you on this site? This isn't some place of ecumenical discussion - it's a deadpool site!

 

Always a sticky argument once you throw the Nazis in IMO....

[Anubis the Jackal 77]

Vade retro, Satanas

 

 

If it's a question of morality see it like this:

I am only 3 years older than her. Would you put me on your list?

[Windsor 2,233]

Who deleted my rant?

Put it back.

[Captain Oates 21]

My right-brained bit (64% according to the "things to do" test) is saying: Don't pick her, she seems like a nice kid and it might upset her, she's deserves support with nothing negative to spoil the time she has left, she is really not much more than a child and might not understand, etc, etc.

It is also saying: I like points!

 

My left brained bit (45%) says: Is she famous enough in the first place, a celebrity in her 16 years so far?

Will she get a qualifying obit?

Is she likely to die within a year?

Do the rules of whatever-deadpool allow her to be chosen?

Might choosing her have a bad effect on her morale and on her survival prospects should she find out? This is important because it would be against the rules to hasten the demise of a candidate and would also be inhumane and possibly illegal if done with intent.

 

On balance, I will be leaving her out of the reckoning. Sod the possible points, I'll get them elsewhere!

 

On deathlist.net there are no points to be gained, only the satisfaction of having selected a good team who fulfil our predictions*.

Perhaps this is just another of the many wonderful things about this place.

 

 

 

 

*Or we can enjoy a good old moan about the management if they don't.

[Tuber Mirum 125]

you pointless excuse for a person. she did not sell her story. she did not contact the press,and she has not denied treatment ..there isnt anything left she can take apart from morphine which she can take at home

There are plenty of alternative treatments for cancer many of which are considered by some to be just as effective/ineffective as the standard therapies.

 

I'd be surprised if she wasn't giving something a go.

[Tempus Fugit 214]

.

[maryportfuncity 10,645]

We're not showing up anywhere near the top on AOL either. In fact, somewhere in the twenties there's a hit from the Daily Mail comes up under her name with the headline;

 

Librarians Should be Sexier

 

 

[football_fan 42]

The title change appears to have kicked in re. Google search, so that's a relief.

Not entirely. If someone really wants to find a discussion about her, this thread can still be found. It can still be found on page 4 in google, page 5 in yahoo, etc...

[maryportfuncity 10,645]

More to the point we're in Paul Hunter territory of sainthood and therefore offering potential offence to honest decent people - whatever the F**k that means. When they find us, or someone finds us and thinks to tell one of them, they'll come calling.

 

Speaking of which, aren't we about due one of the infrequent Jill Sinclair rants?

[Gunjaman5000 30]

I'm a firm supporter of the school of thought that if your pick is only famous for being terminally ill, then they shouldn't be eligible. They have to be independently B-List Celebs (or C) before they contract terminal syphillis or sillicone cancer or whatever.

I don't have much of a moral gripe either way about someone's age, but I won't be picking her for her lack of celeb status before becoming a brave little heart. I know I'll probably miss out on some decent points by the look of it, but there's simply no moral quandry for me here.

Well, she won't be on the DL for 2007. Not because of morality issues, but because of low hanging fruit issues. She's only famous because she's expected to die, ergo not eligible for selection.

 

I hope she gets better, so any of the weasels who pick her for the DDP don't get any points.

 

I'm with you here gentlemen. If she hadn't refused treatment and died anyway would we be having this debate? The other thing that bothers me is, if there's nothing wrong with her inclusion on this or any other deadpool, why change the thread title?

 

Are we having our cake and eating it too?

[football_fan 42]

The other thing that bothers me is, if there's nothing wrong with her inclusion on this or any other deadpool, why change the thread title?

 

Are we having our cake and eating it too?

That is exactly my point. We should not have changed the title of this thread for the purposes of hopefully preventing someone from finding it. It is balanced in terms of opinions being expressed, both for and against Josie being included on deathpool lists. So why try to hide it?

[Tempus Fugit 214]

.

[Godot 149]

The other thing that bothers me is, if there's nothing wrong with her inclusion on this or any other deadpool, why change the thread title?

 

Are we having our cake and eating it too?

That is exactly my point. We should not have changed the title of this thread for the purposes of hopefully preventing someone from finding it. It is balanced in terms of opinions being expressed, both for and against Josie being included on deathpool lists. So why try to hide it?

I think it was TF who asked for the change because it looked as if he had instigated the thread. I think it should be as was.

 

I may have been a little OTT in the SS comparison yesterday. I wasn't comparing certain Deathlisters to the SS, merely drawing similarities with the reasoning and justifications. I'm sure most SS members would have drawn the line at listing her.

[Tempus Fugit 214]

.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Tempus Fugit

[Godot 149]

Oh here's a potential HDP candidate,

 

XXXXXXXXXX*

 

Now that would be crossing a line IMO.

 

*Link disabled, I really shouldn't have posted it.

Well done TF. Wise move.

[maryportfuncity 10,645]

For those of us gazing at the above two posts in confusion could someone involved - like - describe roughly what was on the now disabled link?

[Octopus of Odstock 2,187]

For those of us gazing at the above two posts in confusion could someone involved - like - describe roughly what was on the now disabled link?

 

I didn't ever actually see the link, but if it's referring to who I very well think it might be, then, really & honestly, MPFC, you are better off not knowing & just leaving it well alone. A cancer-hit young lady is one thing, but this particular female IS way, way off limits.

 

 

But again, I could be way wrong. One can never tell with the mind of Tempus.