Hs2

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

I have a question for all you Brits: I have just recently become aware of your proposed HS2 high speed rail project and I was wondering why there is so much opposition to it. As I understand it, it is primarily due to cost (and fears the project might end up being a white elephant) and also the environmental impact (though it will be taking more cars off the road.) Is that it or are there other concerns as well?

 

I guess I am curious about why there is so much vehement opposition since your neighbours in France have successfully been running high speed rail for decades now....

 

Thanks.

[msc 17,849]

There is a lot of NIMBYism in the UK, basically.

[YoungWillz 19,350]

My view on this (from a part of the UK that HS2 will never reach in my lifetime) is quite clear.

 

The Government says this will be part of an infrastructure which will create a "Northern Powerhouse", the other part being a devolution of powers to the cities of the North (in this case the North of the UK stops at the border with England). This is quite the most unbelievable shite (I don't use that term often) I have ever heard.

 

1. Devolving powers just means a smaller state and those lovely politicians at Westminster, who have just given themselves a handsome payrise, will be doing much less for their money. Meanwhile, the local authorities who have been struggling by will find themselves constricted by yet more responsibility and ever tighter budgets.

 

2. Having a speedy rail link isn't about getting products and people from the North to the South, it's about getting surpluses and surfeits from the already wealthy South out to what they view as the desolate North in addition to the trade and services they already have within the South and out to Europe.

 

As I understand it, the opposition however isn't actually based on either of the above - it's about something cutting through the green and pleasant land of Tory heartlands - so the opposition politically is about wealthy politicians saving their own jobs. It's the same sorry attitude that Donald Trump has to windfarms near his golf course that the populations of these areas have - my view and my way of life will be destroyed in the name of progress and contributing to saving the planet, and that just won't do. It's elitism and wealth and small mindedness that many decry Trump for that they place at the heart of their local politics, imo.

 

Sorry, just come back from watching Question Time - Anna Soubry just makes me irate, so thanks for giving a topic for me to let off steam.

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

Thanks for the perspectives, guys. One criticism I have heard from a French person is that high speed rail creates a "vortex" sucking jobs out of smaller regional cities like Amiens as everyone can just jump on a train and go to Paris easily.

 

".. it's about something cutting through the green and pleasant land of Tory heartlands" - the thing that I don't get from these opponents is that rail corridors are fairly narrow and would cause a lot less long term damage to these areas than bulldozing an 8 lane highway through them.....

 

"so the opposition politically is about wealthy politicians saving their own jobs. It's the same sorry attitude that Donald Trump has to windfarms near his golf course that the populations of these areas have - my view and my way of life will be destroyed in the name of progress and contributing to saving the planet, and that just won't do." So, as MSC also said, NIMBYism.

[maryportfuncity 10,043]

The UK simply isn't that big so to be fair the nimbyism has a point because we're running out of places to put major building works and everywhere we do put them impacts some poor section of the community.

 

Wilz makes some good points above to which I'd add:

 

1 - The basic evidence suggests everytime we build a major road or railway - we fill it, traffic reduction in London - for example - was a major reason to build the highly congested M25 which now circles the highly congested capital city.

 

2 - There's a major argument against HS2 which revolves around 20th century thinking (moving people to work) being applied to a century in which online links might well reduce the need for commuting etc. I mean, it isn't as if deathlisters all have to travel to a forum meeting is it? So, the ongoing business case doesn't convince everyone.

[philheybrookbay 439]

Also bear in mind, living in a part of the world where there are no motorways for 42 miles, the train hugs a coast shoreline and was washed away back in 2014. Also that the same train from Plymouth to Exeter takes over an hour.

 

HS2? It's a joke when we are so isolated. Plus our airports are both 34 miles west and 46 miles east of here.

[deathisallaround 21]

And when the Dawlish part of the line crumbles (again) and there is a crash on the A38, we are stuck here!

[Youwanticewiththat 610]

They do say when the mists come down you sleep for a hundred years.

[msc 17,849]

Never mind HS2, I think they should just build more train lines in general. I like trains. We should burn effigies of Dr Beeching at the stake, really. That's my biased opinion on the matter.

[Grim Up North 3,567]

I think the whole concept and timeline of HS2 is horrifically flawed and lacks imagination and vision.

 

Young Willz I think you will find that the North of the UK stops at Manchester but that's a different debate.

 

My point though is the same as Mary's - in 20 years time we will be having hologram meetings all over the world and probably actually able to virtually shake each other's hands and feel it.

 

Actually physically travelling somewhere will be one of those retro things people do like reading a paper book.

 

People will go to virtual theatres and the Albert Hall will somehow own the virtual rights to ticketing at the Virtual Albert Hall and will be able to pack in unlimited people to performances all paying about 20p each for the experience.

 

IMO the world will be a very different place in 2033 and if it isn't by 2033 then it will be by 2050 so the return on investment will be pish.

[En Passant 3,007]

The UK simply isn't that big so to be fair the nimbyism has a point because we're running out of places to put major building works and everywhere we do put them impacts some poor section of the community.

 

Wilz makes some good points above to which I'd add:

 

1 - The basic evidence suggests everytime we build a major road or railway - we fill it, traffic reduction in London - for example - was a major reason to build the highly congested M25 which now circles the highly congested capital city.

 

2 - There's a major argument against HS2 which revolves around 20th century thinking (moving people to work) being applied to a century in which online links might well reduce the need for commuting etc. I mean, it isn't as if deathlisters all have to travel to a forum meeting is it? So, the ongoing business case doesn't convince everyone.

This. In spades.

Build more roads rails and so on and you find people travelling 50+ miles to work (school, shop, leisure etc), probably passing people travelling 50 miles in the opposite direction doing exactly the same thing (Ya not necessarily balancing out it may be more one way than the other, though its hard to say that about the M25).

They will conitinue to do this until the traffic density outweighs the benefit of doing so, and bingo, back to square one but all wasting more of everyones time whilst creating more stress more pollution and more global warming.

[Bibliogryphon 8,779]

Thanks for the perspectives, guys. One criticism I have heard from a French person is that high speed rail creates a "vortex" sucking jobs out of smaller regional cities like Amiens as everyone can just jump on a train and go to Paris easily.

 

".. it's about something cutting through the green and pleasant land of Tory heartlands" - the thing that I don't get from these opponents is that rail corridors are fairly narrow and would cause a lot less long term damage to these areas than bulldozing an 8 lane highway through them.....

 

"so the opposition politically is about wealthy politicians saving their own jobs. It's the same sorry attitude that Donald Trump has to windfarms near his golf course that the populations of these areas have - my view and my way of life will be destroyed in the name of progress and contributing to saving the planet, and that just won't do." So, as MSC also said, NIMBYism.

 

The point being is the bulldozing is going to be through houses with large gardens and some very nice golf courses rather than places where the poor people live and so the NIMBYs who have time, money and organisation on their side are getting very vocal. Have a look at the proposed route (particularly the London to Birmingham stretch and then overlay the voting results of the 2010/2015 elections - you might then begin to understand the problem.

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,324]

 

Thanks for the perspectives, guys. One criticism I have heard from a French person is that high speed rail creates a "vortex" sucking jobs out of smaller regional cities like Amiens as everyone can just jump on a train and go to Paris easily.

 

".. it's about something cutting through the green and pleasant land of Tory heartlands" - the thing that I don't get from these opponents is that rail corridors are fairly narrow and would cause a lot less long term damage to these areas than bulldozing an 8 lane highway through them.....

 

"so the opposition politically is about wealthy politicians saving their own jobs. It's the same sorry attitude that Donald Trump has to windfarms near his golf course that the populations of these areas have - my view and my way of life will be destroyed in the name of progress and contributing to saving the planet, and that just won't do." So, as MSC also said, NIMBYism.

 

The point being is the bulldozing is going to be through houses with large gardens and some very nice golf courses rather than places where the poor people live and so the NIMBYs who have time, money and organisation on their side are getting very vocal. Have a look at the proposed route (particularly the London to Birmingham stretch and then overlay the voting results of the 2010/2015 elections - you might then begin to understand the problem.

Thanks to everyone with their thoughts on this. I first became aware of it when a bloke who married an Aussie girl I one knew was whingeing about it on his blog. He generally has green leanings so I thought it might have been environmental concerns at first but then that didn't seem to be the case and he is from somewhere in Buckinghamshire and I understand the line goes through there and that it is an upmarket area (correct me if I am wrong). They are fairly wealthy (the wife was definitely born with a silver spoon in her mouth), Champagne-socialist/"Guardianista" types with, unfortunately, no real understanding of the concerns of the poor/working class going by their blog so I suspect it might be NIMBYism in their case. I just couldn't understand the vehemence against it at first.

 

 

deathisallaround/PhilleyBrookBay your line sounds even worse than the one I am on down here in Aus and that is saying something. A crash or flood and we are quickly cut off too.

 

Yes I have read a lot about the Beeching report in the past. Our state governments made similar mistakes, eliminating trams from most cities except Melbourne and Adelaide and now, 60 years later, they are thinking of bringing them back as all the cities choke with traffic.

[Grim Up North 3,567]

I think the whole concept and timeline of HS2 is horrifically flawed and lacks imagination and vision.

 

Young Willz I think you will find that the North of the UK stops at Manchester but that's a different debate.

 

My point though is the same as Mary's - in 20 years time we will be having hologram meetings all over the world and probably actually able to virtually shake each other's hands and feel it.

 

Actually physically travelling somewhere will be one of those retro things people do like reading a paper book.

 

People will go to virtual theatres and the Albert Hall will somehow own the virtual rights to ticketing at the Virtual Albert Hall and will be able to pack in unlimited people to performances all paying about 20p each for the experience.

 

IMO the world will be a very different place in 2033 and if it isn't by 2033 then it will be by 2050 so the return on investment will be pish.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36273151

 

Maybe I got the solution wrong but HS2 solution already out of date!!