Britney Spears, Kerry Katona, Heather Locklear et al.

[Anubis the Jackal 77]

Sorry, Mary...Otis wrote 'Dock of the Bay', as well as lots of his other hits.

[Olveres 8]

And Otis Redding, in fact pretty much everyone who mattered at Motown as well bar Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye.

 

Redding was signed to Atlantic not Motown

[TLC 9]

Whereas these fine chaps wrote their own material, leapfrogging Elvis & Sinatra etc. to the credibility they always craved.

Including one of the finest opening lines in pop history: -

 

'I watched you crumble, like a very old wall.'

[Monoclinic 39]

Apparently she wrote or co-wrote some of the tracks on a third album so does that earn her the title of singer then?

 

I can't say I have heard any of them. I was too busy watching the paint dry on the crumbling old wall.

[maryportfuncity 10,630]

Oi, look at the punctuation and the 'as well' in my post above and it's obvious I know Otis wasn't on Motown. I never said he wrote nowt but some of his best known songs were covers. For that matter those creatively challenged Beatles covered Twist and Shout and their under-performing songwriters Lennon and McCartney both did albums of rock n roll covers. And whilst we're splitting hairs the reference to a slew of Motown acts should probably include the mention of Smokey Robinson - signed to Motown - being another example of a writer/performer.

 

Re Britney writing her own stuff; it's a fairly standard contractual thing for artists like her who've shifted copies of everyone else's to get a songwriting cut. Kylie Minogue also 'writes' her own songs. If you were in the studio you'd probably see that this amounts to them handing in some ideas, a few lines of lyrics and getting to argue the right to do a vocal line a few ways before making the final decision. To the best of my knowledge the over-riding ideas of how it will sound and the conceptual stuff are handled by others. So she can chip in, but she's not exactly U2.

[Anubis the Jackal 77]

Re Britney writing her own stuff; it's a fairly standard contractual thing for artists like her who've shifted copies of everyone else's to get a songwriting cut. Kylie Minogue also 'writes' her own songs. If you were in the studio you'd probably see that this amounts to them handing in some ideas, a few lines of lyrics and getting to argue the right to do a vocal line a few ways before making the final decision.

 

Known in the trade as 'Change a word, take a third' because of the resultant division of monies for songwriting credits. See Williams, R. and his various 'song-writing partners'

[maryportfuncity 10,630]

See also the Axton, Durdon, Presley team who 'wrote' Heartbreak Hotel; probably the most lucrative word for a third in history.

[Olveres 8]

Oi, look at the punctuation and the 'as well' in my post above and it's obvious I know Otis wasn't on Motown. I never said he wrote nowt but some of his best known songs were covers. For that matter those creatively challenged Beatles covered Twist and Shout and their under-performing songwriters Lennon and McCartney both did albums of rock n roll covers. And whilst we're splitting hairs the reference to a slew of Motown acts should probably include the mention of Smokey Robinson - signed to Motown - being another example of a writer/performer.

 

Re Britney writing her own stuff; it's a fairly standard contractual thing for artists like her who've shifted copies of everyone else's to get a songwriting cut. Kylie Minogue also 'writes' her own songs. If you were in the studio you'd probably see that this amounts to them handing in some ideas, a few lines of lyrics and getting to argue the right to do a vocal line a few ways before making the final decision. To the best of my knowledge the over-riding ideas of how it will sound and the conceptual stuff are handled by others. So she can chip in, but she's not exactly U2.

 

Apologies for the incorrect interpretation of your post.

 

Re Britney, I'm glad she's not U2, Bono thinks he's God and we only need the one, but apparently Britney's been running round the rehab unit with 666 scribbled on her head saying she's the Antichrist, hmmm I wonder when the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse are going to show up, maybe that's going to be Take That's next announcement. I wonder which one each member will turn out to be?

[TLC 9]

Apologies for the incorrect interpretation of your post.

 

Re Britney, I'm glad she's not U2, Bono thinks he's God and we only need the one, but apparently Britney's been running round the rehab unit with 666 scribbled on her head saying she's the Antichrist, hmmm I wonder when the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse are going to show up, maybe that's going to be Take That's next announcement. I wonder which one each member will turn out to be?

I doubt that singer/songwriter Gary Barlow will turn out to be be Famine..

[Lard Bazaar 3,799]

Apologies for the incorrect interpretation of your post.

 

Re Britney, I'm glad she's not U2, Bono thinks he's God and we only need the one, but apparently Britney's been running round the rehab unit with 666 scribbled on her head saying she's the Antichrist, hmmm I wonder when the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse are going to show up, maybe that's going to be Take That's next announcement. I wonder which one each member will turn out to be?

I doubt that singer/songwriter Gary Barlow will turn out to be be Famine..

 

 

To echo a previous post, harsh....but very fair.

[TLC 9]

To echo a previous post, harsh....but very fair.

Just to pop slightly further off topic if I may, 'harsh... but fair' has to be one of my most frequently used phrases.

 

Strangely I remember where I first read it; in Loaded magazine when they mentioned the shooting of Andres Escobar, the Colombian footballer who was murdered back home by an enraged 'fan' after scoring an own goal against the USA in the USA '94 World Cup...

 

Not sure if it's an urban myth, but apparently Alan Hansen said something along the lines of 'that's a terrible defensive error, he should be shot for that' when doing his post match punditry at the time. If Venables had said it, I reckon the police would have checked to see if it was more than a coincidence.

 

Anyway, Britney. Erm...

 

....

[Banshees Scream 110]

Yeah, Banshees... Talentless hacks, eh?

 

But Sinatra had fruit thrown in his face and crowds didn't approve of his legendary voice so much untill he got older. By the way, he also won an academy award as an actor so he wasn't only famous for his singing. And for banging Marilyn Monroe. He was like jack of all trades.

 

Elvis Presley was the king of Rock N Roll, I thought he wrote most of his songs? But even if he didnt, he was the first guy on television to dance like a puppet on cocain. He could sing, he was an actor, he was something the world had never seen. You get the point.

 

It wouldn't matter if they didn't write all the songs they sung, it was more then one trade that made them great. And i'm sure they still wrote their songs. Brittany Spears can't be compared to people like this. She don't live on the same block.

[Monoclinic 39]

Yeah, Banshees... Talentless hacks, eh?

 

But Sinatra had fruit thrown in his face and crowds didn't approve of his legendary voice so much untill he got older. By the way, he also won an academy award as an actor so he wasn't only famous for his singing. And for banging Marilyn Monroe. He was like jack of all trades.

 

Elvis Presley was the king of Rock N Roll, I thought he wrote most of his songs? But even if he didnt, he was the first guy on television to dance like a puppet on cocain. He could sing, he was an actor, he was something the world had never seen. You get the point.

 

It wouldn't matter if they didn't write all the songs they sung, it was more then one trade that made them great. And i'm sure they still wrote their songs. Brittany Spears can't be compared to people like this. She don't live on the same block.

 

Is that the same block J Lo's from?

[TLC 9]

Yeah, Banshees... Talentless hacks, eh?

But Sinatra had fruit thrown in his face and crowds didn't approve of his legendary voice so much untill he got older. By the way, he also won an academy award as an actor so he wasn't only famous for his singing. And for banging Marilyn Monroe. He was like jack of all trades.

 

Elvis Presley was the king of Rock N Roll, I thought he wrote most of his songs? But even if he didnt, he was the first guy on television to dance like a puppet on cocain. He could sing, he was an actor, he was something the world had never seen. You get the point.

 

It wouldn't matter if they didn't write all the songs they sung, it was more then one trade that made them great. And i'm sure they still wrote their songs. Brittany Spears can't be compared to people like this. She don't live on the same block.

You do realise that the above 'talentless hacks' quote from AtJ was in direct response to your statement of: -

I look down upon those people who call themselves singers and who can't write their own songs.

from not quite 2 days ago?

 

So that doesen't work and you try and shift the argument to who's the best performer, or the fact that Elvis & Sinatra did other things besides the music that sets them apart from Ms Spears.

 

The worrying thing is, neither of those stand up to much scrutiny either.

 

Britney Spears can be compared to the above in terms of not writing their own songs. No-one other than you is trying to argue about whether she's as good as Elvis or Sinatra or not. Ask the most fanatic of Elvis fans and I doubt they'll say he did any more than make token contributions to songwriting, if that.

 

And please don't try and tell me that if Elvis hadn't been a singer he'd have been a successful actor and coked-up puppet impersonator. His films were purely to show off his singing, dancing and good looks, with less plot than the average hard-core porn movie. They were only made because he was a famous singer.

 

Even Sinatra. He may have got an acting Oscar, but how did he get the part in the film? I admit I'm guessing here, but I suspect it was due to being a hugely famous singer with 'possible' mob connections, not because he disguised himself and went to acting school to get the job on his own acting merits. Same with playing nudey-prod games with Marilyn Monroe, he didn't become famous for that, and if he did he'd be ranked right up there with the WAGs (Wives And Girlfriends, mostly of England Football players in case this is a British term) as being famous for sleeping with someone i.e a Z-lister.

 

Besides, Britney can also dance if we're going along with that line of reasoning. And until the recent Borstal image adoption she was considered very attractive. So even if this line of reasoning wasn't complete rubbish, she still can't be separated from Elvis & Sinatra by this method.

 

Don't think for one minute I rate Britney. I think she's an average singer who makes terrible records, and I also think she's averagely attractive. It's just that you so often come out with confident sounding statements, and when people disagree (or produce facts to show you're wrong) you just start talking about something slightly different. Or something you think someone has said. Or something completely unrelated.

 

That said, I really like the expression 'he was the first guy on television to dance like a puppet on cocaine'.

[Banshees Scream 110]

Even Sinatra. He may have got an acting Oscar, but how did he get the part in the film? I admit I'm guessing here, but I suspect it was due to being a hugely famous singer with 'possible' mob connections, not because he disguised himself and went to acting school to get the job on his own acting merits.

 

Answering your own questions. But it doesn't matter he was an actor and that is that.

 

Don't think for one minute I rate Britney. I think she's an average singer who makes terrible records, and I also think she's averagely attractive. It's just that you so often come out with confident sounding statements, and when people disagree (or produce facts to show you're wrong) you just start talking about something slightly different. Or something you think someone has said. Or something completely unrelated.

 

Well i'm so glad you agree on my part, but I wasn't making statements in the distance, i'm just saying she doesn't live on the same block as Sinatra and Elvis. I don't care if she wrote all her own songs or not, the matter of truth in the situation is you can't compare. In todays music buesness very few reach that potential of being respected in a golden way. Brittany Spears is not one of them. She might not write her own songs which puts her in the same basket as the others, but otherwise her reasons of being known are for a average voice, and to be on the cover of a womans magazine.

[Olveres 8]

I look down upon those people who call themselves singers and who can't write their own songs.

 

I pity those songwriters who can't sing their own songs.

[TLC 9]

Well i'm so glad you agree on my part, but I wasn't making statements in the distance, i'm just saying she doesn't live on the same block as Sinatra and Elvis. I don't care if she wrote all her own songs or not, the matter of truth in the situation is you can't compare. In todays music buesness very few reach that potential of being respected in a golden way. Brittany Spears is not one of them. She might not write her own songs which puts her in the same basket as the others, but otherwise her reasons of being known are for a average voice, and to be on the cover of a womans magazine.

Are you actually aware what discussion your original post lead to here? Have you even read your own earlier posts? Your last paragraph more or less agrees with what everyone else was saying, but is at complete odds with where you started a couple of days ago.

 

There is a clue in the bit I've highlighted above, it's just subtly different from where you said

I look down upon those people who call themselves singers and who can't write their own songs.

which includes Sinatra and Presley. NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER YOU THINK THEY ARE BETTER THAN HER OR NOT, THEY DIDN'T WRITE THEIR OWN SONGS SO YOU EITHER LOOK DOWN ON THEM OR YOU HAVE CHANGED YOUR MIND IN LESS THAN 2 DAYS BUT WON'T ADMIT IT!

 

If you look up quickly you might just catch that last clue flying several miles over your head.

[Monoclinic 39]

That said, I really like the expression 'he was the first guy on television to dance like a puppet on cocaine'.

 

I think the expression I am searching for is a sh*t sandwich but I can't remember exactly. My friend was explaining that when his company were "letting go" of some of the employees he had to give out some of the aforementioned sandwiches by sandwiching the bad stuff between nicely phrased compliments.

 

Hence unless someone corrects me on the actual phrase, I think TLC, you've just given BS a Danish sh*t sandwich and a well presented one at that!

[TLC 9]

I think the expression I am searching for is a sh*t sandwich but I can't remember exactly. My friend was explaining that when his company were "letting go" of some of the employees he had to give out some of the aforementioned sandwiches by sandwiching the bad stuff between nicely phrased compliments.

 

Hence unless someone corrects me on the actual phrase, I think TLC, you've just given BS a Danish sh*t sandwich and a well presented one at that!

I cut the crusts off, made it into diagonal quarters and served it with a sprig of green pointless garnish, to extend the metaphor past breaking point. Similar to damning with faint praise I guess? But I did mean it, it made me laugh.

 

Having now got home and still being out of smokeable relaxant (see room 101 thread) I've started to think about stuff (never a good thing), and I'd like to make it known that despite apprearances I don't have a personal grudge against BS.

 

I just find it very difficult to follow what he says, and when he replies I find it always leaves even more questions than answers which sometimes makes me get a little frustrated, to say the least.

 

Due to that, I can't promise I won't happen again, but hopefully if I question his judgement in future it will be because of what he's just written, rather than an urge to persecute.

 

Confession over; damn good job I'm not a catholic, I have enough self-generated guilt in my life as it is.

[Banshees Scream 110]

NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER YOU THINK THEY ARE BETTER THAN HER OR NOT, THEY DIDN'T WRITE THEIR OWN SONGS SO YOU EITHER LOOK DOWN ON THEM OR YOU HAVE CHANGED YOUR MIND IN LESS THAN 2 DAYS BUT WON'T ADMIT IT!

 

I don't really appreciate that they did not write their own songs, but when it comes down to the matter, I have more respect for them even as they didn't write their own songs then I do for bald spears. I say they live on a different block because they are legendary, single mother is just some former teenage pop idol who ruined her career and was very untalented. Your looking at it in a all or nothing sort of deal. I'm sure they also wrote more songs then she did, So Expand Please.

[TLC 9]

I don't really appreciate that they did not write their own songs, but when it comes down to the matter, I have more respect for them even as they didn't write their own songs then I do for bald spears. I say they live on a different block because they are legendary, single mother is just some former teenage pop idol who ruined her career and was very untalented. Your looking at it in a all or nothing sort of deal. I'm sure they also wrote more songs then she did, So Expand Please.

I'm looking at it in an all or nothing sort of deal? OK, One last time.... Do you recognise the quote below?

I look down upon those people who call themselves singers and who can't write their own songs.

This is what the argument stems from. I don't care if you have more respect for Kermit than Sinatra, it's not what we're in disagreement about. The quote above (your quote, recognise it yet?) if taken as representing what you actually think, means you look down on Britney because she doesn't write her own songs.

 

But crucially, it also means you look down on Elvis and Sinatra because they didn't write their own songs either.

I look down upon those people who call themselves singers and who can't write their own songs.

But by your comments since, it is clear you don't look down on Elvis, Sinatra etc as much as Britney. You didn't seem to realise they didn't write their own stuff when you made the above quote, but to avoid looking foolish you keep trying to insist they did write their own material, or that they were famous for much more than their singing as if that somehow gets them out of the non-songwriting category.

I look down upon those people who call themselves singers and who can't write their own songs.

Even if I could beyond doubt prove to you that Elvis & Sinatra never lifted so much as a finger to write their own songs, you're still going to have more respect for them than for Britney, am I right? And I don't blame you. But if I'm right, this quote: -

I look down upon those people who call themselves singers and who can't write their own songs.

is bullshit. As to why you can't understand that, it's beyond my powers to explain. I didn't think it was, but it is.

 

That Is As Far As I Can Expand Before I Explode. I'd say I feel like I'm having an argument with an adolescent, but that does those hormonally-challenged strop-machines a severe disservice.

[CarolAnn 926]

Reading through all this I can't help but wonder where that leaves Pavarotti. Not only does he not write his own songs most of his songs were written by people long since dead......

 

I'd get my coat but I left it in Texas.

[Real Madron 6]

are you two still arguing in here?

[TLC 9]

Reading through all this I can't help but wonder where that leaves Pavarotti. Not only does he not write his own songs most of his songs were written by people long since dead......

 

I'd get my coat but I left it in Texas.

Tonight Matthew, I shall be performing as...... (drumroll) ..... Banshee's Scream!! (Applause)

 

No, Pavarotti's fine because he is also a successful actor no... is a part-time supermodel ah! earned his first local fame as a member of the town's soccer team, meaning he's multi-talented and famous for other reasons not just his singing. So the rules don't apply because, well, because they don't.

 

Besides, he's way more talented than Britney! You can't compare them! And I'm certain he at least helped to write all of those songs written before he was born, so there.

 

Remember:

I look down upon those people who call themselves singers and who can't write their own songs.

[Banshees Scream 110]

I look down upon those people who call themselves singers and who can't write their own songs.

 

I don't take it back. For these people who call themselves musicians, I don't understand how you can perform something that is not of your own. Honoring one or two songs sung by another person is one thing, but having no part in what you sing is just something I can't understand. I look down into this barrel of non - creative lyrical talent, and Elvis sits with Frank and yes I close the lid. But even as they might have never wrote a song in their lives (Which I was aware they were not big writers) I still respect their music and lives better then Spears. (Where does respect come in you wonder?) Respect is a big part of this because you can't just look at what is a drag about somebody, and define them once. If you want my answer i'll scream it I look down upon those people who call themselves singers and who can't write their own songs

 

So that means f**k you Elvis. f**k you Frank Sinatra. You aren't nothing special in the creative world. But Elvis was a profit of Rock N Roll, he was original and Sinatra was original somewhat and was probably in the Mob and he probably knew how to get a spotlight on him even as he couldn't sing or write. So you have what i'm saying. The respect is still around for other intended reasons. I said it. Read it in clear vision.