J051e Gr0ve

[themaninblack 2,112]

In case you don't know, 16 yr old Josie Grove has decided to no longer have treatment

for terminal cancer and has decided to enjoy what life she has left.

 

Link

 

As you can see, the mainstream media have covered the story and will almost certainly follow

this up when her short life comes to an end.

 

This leaves a quandary: DDP rules allow candidates to be over 16 and as she is a the very start

of the age band, will score 12 points for whoever choses her...

 

...question is, would you do it?

 

[grobler 35]

In case you don't know, 16 yr old Josie Grove has decided to no longer have treatment

for terminal cancer and has decided to enjoy what life she has left.

 

Link

 

As you can see, the mainstream media have covered the story and will almost certainly follow

this up when her short life comes to an end.

 

This leaves a quandary: DDP rules allow candidates to be over 16 and as she is a the very start

of the age band, will score 12 points for whoever choses her...

 

...question is, would you do it?

 

 

Probably.....the thing is though , she was on local tele last night ....she clearly is a fighter with LOADS of passion for life . She looks a bit like Jane Tomlinson....and I hope she survives like her too . I'd bet Josie makes it through a few years yet.....

[themaninblack 2,112]

I think I might know who you could be referring to, Tempus! I have no qualms, points are points !

 

 

Yep massive potential DDP points, but a very sad story.

 

I know. But rules are rules........

 

I've created a thread for this in extra-curricular. If the moderators can do the honours...

 

thanx

 

[Posts moved from Ideas and Possibilities Thread - ff]

Edited December 8, 2006 by football_fan

[themaninblack 2,112]

In case you don't know, 16 yr old Josie Grove has decided to no longer have treatment

for terminal cancer and has decided to enjoy what life she has left.

 

Link

 

As you can see, the mainstream media have covered the story and will almost certainly follow

this up when her short life comes to an end.

 

This leaves a quandary: DDP rules allow candidates to be over 16 and as she is a the very start

of the age band, will score 12 points for whoever choses her...

 

...question is, would you do it?

 

 

Probably.....the thing is though , she was on local tele last night ....she clearly is a fighter with LOADS of passion for life . She looks a bit like Jane Tomlinson....and I hope she survives like her too . I'd bet Josie makes it through a few years yet.....

 

 

Yeah, no-one wants her to die...

[Tempus Fugit 214]

.

[Rotten Ali 600]

In case you don't know, 16 yr old Josie Grove has decided to no longer have treatment

for terminal cancer and has decided to enjoy what life she has left.

 

Link

 

As you can see, the mainstream media have covered the story and will almost certainly follow

this up when her short life comes to an end.

 

This leaves a quandary: DDP rules allow candidates to be over 16 and as she is a the very start

of the age band, will score 12 points for whoever choses her...

 

...question is, would you do it?

 

 

I saw the news reports on Tuesday night and I was very impressed by the young lady. What a nasty condition to be stricken with. At such an age is so unfair. But to endure two years of treatment and to come to a decision not to continue the painful treatments shows just the horrible quandary she is facing. Modern cures are advancing all the time but to be faced with situation that one's cancer is terminal takes away so much hope for the future. It takes some guts to let it take your life because the treatments are themselves are so painful. John Spencer came to the viewpoint that to continue treatment was not what he wanted and my heart goes out to Josie.

 

Yes, the media will follow her story and as I was one to say to the DDP that an objectionable age of under 16 would not be one that I could back. Hence I feel it would be now be hypocritical not to pick a 16 year old female with a very bleak medical outlook when maximum points would be on offer in this "competition". I would much rather have Mugabe on my list but age factors do cut more deeply from now on.

 

As I feel for baby Charlotte Wyatt, Gavin Arviso & Seth Cook, I feel for her. I wish her well and hope that she might reverse her decision and take the option to seek the treatment and make a full recovery. She has age on her side and this will be a powerful asset should she wish to dig even deeper. Still at this time I do believe she will be one of my DDP "team members" but that does not limit my hope that she fully recovers.

[Canadian Paul 97]

Post deleted by poster

[Godot 149]

Interesting, this. I'm delighted she has been mentioned here. When reading about her on my train home I thought she needed a mention. I agree with most of the sentiments in the above posts. Here is a girl with a maturity beyond her years who is thinking about life. Her story is inspiring.

 

Then there is the Deathlist. The problem with deathlisting people is that however much we may want them to live, the very fact that they are on a list that is all about winning points and accolades for getting the biggest total, means that we cannot ignore the emotions stirred by points in the bag. That creates a conflict of emotions.

 

I don't want any of my picks to die but I know they must some day. But I really, really don't want Josie to die. Not yet. Not before she has learned what a cycnical, miserable world this is. I want her to go on living and smiling.

 

I guess we all draw our personal lines in the sand. Josie is on the other side of my line. There is no quandry as far as I'm concerned. She would never be on my list and anyone here who lists her is no friend of mine.

[Tempus Fugit 214]

.

[Rotten Ali 600]

She would never be on my list and anyone here who lists her is no friend of mine.

 

Are any of us really friends?

Is this forum a friendship club? Or as I understand it, a place where people who are somewhat competative tend to pop in and out of to judge if we are in anyway successful in our line of thinking in matters of life and death.

What's a real friend? - I heard the other day that it would be someone who would help you to cover up a murder!

Rude Kid asked a question the other day about age limits and viewpoints about banding. He relayed his considered results of our thinking and these are the rules we will play too. From then on, we can all pose ourselves moral questions as to whom we shall include on our 20 person list. Are we only going to list nasty people or those we have personally met? For such moral questions to limit oneself to a shortening list of ones "internet friends" due to whether we do, or do not list a 16 year old on our team is regretable but understandable. Does this expand only to listing under 18 year olds Godot? There are lots I don't like about our world but even you Godot, has expertly expanded that having such a serious condition as cancer can pay dividends in ones points haul at the end of the year.

 

This is trully a moral question? At aged 16 you can ride a motorbike, work full time, smoke and marry but are you still a child? Tell a 16 year old today that they are still a child and I think you will get short shrift. At age 17 you are allowed to drive on public roads, and at 18 buy alcohol and vote. All these stated aims did not stop a 15 year old lad getting blind drunk and falling under a bus round our way a few years ago. Its more a question for society as a whole but should we deathlisters revisit the DDP age lower limit again?

[CarolAnn 926]

I agree with CP - I don't see it as a moral issue. Death comes to us all, and none of us really has the choice of how or when, unless we throw ourselves under a train - and there is always the chance that we will miss and maim ourselves rather than kill ourselves. It is the one truly unpredictable event in our lives.

 

To me, dying is not a horrible thing. I am not afraid to die despite the fact that I don't believe in an afterlife of any sort. Suffering is the horrible thing, and I applaud this child for making a stand and refusing to suffer unnecessarily. Death is not the enemy that we, as a society, make it out to be.

 

Consequently I don't see the issue with age limits in death pools, although I understand why people want them. I would choose her if I thought she would die this year (which I'm not sure of) and if I was entering the DDP (which I am not).

[football_fan 42]

As I feel for baby Charlotte Wyatt, Gavin Arviso & Seth Cook, I feel for her. I wish her well and hope that she might reverse her decision and take the option to seek the treatment and make a full recovery. She has age on her side and this will be a powerful asset should she wish to dig even deeper. Still at this time I do believe she will be one of my DDP "team members" but that does not limit my hope that she fully recovers.

Cheers RA, I feel the same way. It is horrible for a 16 year old to be in such pain that she is willing to die rather than to continue treatment that might save her life. Hopefully she will reverse her decision. If she does not, I will have to strongly consider adding her to my 2007 ddp list as well.

[Octopus of Odstock 2,180]

She's on my DDP list as both number one and my joker.

 

Ultimately, she's going to die next year anyway, and me NOT picking her isn't going to change that.

 

 

But I do feel for the girl.

 

 

 

and I'm no friend of Godot's already, so no loss there either.

[themaninblack 2,112]

Interesting, this. I'm delighted she has been mentioned here. When reading about her on my train home I thought she needed a mention. I agree with most of the sentiments in the above posts. Here is a girl with a maturity beyond her years who is thinking about life. Her story is inspiring.

 

Then there is the Deathlist. The problem with deathlisting people is that however much we may want them to live, the very fact that they are on a list that is all about winning points and accolades for getting the biggest total, means that we cannot ignore the emotions stirred by points in the bag. That creates a conflict of emotions.

 

I don't want any of my picks to die but I know they must some day. But I really, really don't want Josie to die. Not yet. Not before she has learned what a cycnical, miserable world this is. I want her to go on living and smiling.

 

I guess we all draw our personal lines in the sand. Josie is on the other side of my line. There is no quandry as far as I'm concerned. She would never be on my list and anyone here who lists her is no friend of mine.

 

 

Hmm some debate this. I created the thread because I am split down the middle. One argument to have her in is that deadpools are morally relativistic and so to place this in a moral context (draw a line in the sand, as it were) would be pointless.

 

Another argument against her inclusion would be that she has become 'famous' simply by being ill, not through other means.

 

Cards on the table time - I have a potential candidate on my list who is a convicted Paedophile (not the most shining example to humanity) who is seriously ill and hit the headlines a few years ago over a judicial ruling. Would I treat him as the same candidate for DDP, quite rationally, as a 'brave' 16 yr old terminal patient, or should I have a moral stance on this and cast him but not her? Or do we have neither, as to some eyes, choosing a convicted Paedophile, notorious enough to get a least a mention in one of the broadsheets of his passing, but obscure enough to win points for DDP, would be a rather 'odd' choice anyway....

[Cowboy Ronnie 78]

Well, she won't be on the DL for 2007. Not because of morality issues, but because of low hanging fruit issues. She's only famous because she's expected to die, ergo not eligible for selection.

 

I hope she gets better, so any of the weasels who pick her for the DDP don't get any points.

[DevonDeathTrip 2,356]

And there was me thinking she would be a unique pick!

 

I'm backing away from the idea of picking her now, partly because she might hang on like Jane Tomlinson and also because head office (Mrs Death Trip) has told me in no uncertain terms that Josie's selection will not be acceptable - although those weren't the exact words she used.

[Tempus Fugit 214]

.

[Magere Hein 1,399]

Let me add a few thoughts to the discussion.

 

With regards to being eligible for a death list I see no qualitative difference between picking a 16 year old girl or a 91 year old man. If one is morally reprehensible, so is the other. If there's a difference, it's one of scale.

 

I appreciate the tragedy of a dying child. Thanks to progress in medicine it's a rare occasion in the West nowadays, but that makes it just more of a tragedy. That said, most dying children do so without the media attention Ms Grove gets. The article to which themaninblack pointed doesn't make it clear why she does. If I read this Daily Mail article correctly she is herself partly responsible for it:

 

Josie Grove, from Corbridge, Northumberland, will accept a bravery award tomorrow after being nominated by her nurses.

I'm not sure those nurses did the Right Thing, but Ms Grove is in no obligation to accept an award and could have chosen to do her thing in anonymity.

 

As Cowboy Ronnie already remarked she's ineligible for DL, the Unwritten Rules explicitly exclude anyone Famous for Dying. She'll get the DDP nod, though. I'm far from sure I'll pick her. She's not certain to die in 2007 but she'll score big if she does. Picking her does leave more than a whiff of bad taste, though. As far as I'm concerned that's not because of her age or her disease, but because of the way she got her media attention.

 

regards,

Hein

[Cowboy Ronnie 78]

Well, she won't be on the DL for 2007. Not because of morality issues, but because of low hanging fruit issues. She's only famous because she's expected to die, ergo not eligible for selection.

 

I hope she gets better, so any of the weasels who pick her for the DDP don't get any points.

Rather like the weasels who selected 3 year old George Lineker for the 1993 DeathList.

 

Good point TF, although one could argue that George Lineker enjoyed a degree of fame independent of his illness. Plus his condition wasn't, at the time, as best as I can recall, described as "terminal, with possibly only months to live."

[Guest Spectator]

Who in G's name is/was Josie Grove? Male or female?

[Tempus Fugit 214]

.

[football_fan 42]

Who in G's name is/was Josie Grove? Male or female?

You will find the answer here

[Octopus of Odstock 2,180]

To expand on earlier comments (I was short on time)

 

 

Ultimately, I don't think we can take too much of a moral stance when selecting people for a death pool. Although I base my picks on who I "think" will die rather than who I "want" to die, there is still unease at even wanting people to die (Papon for example)

 

 

The thing is though, what is the difference between picking Josie Grove to say Tammy Faye Messner, or Anton Balasingham? All have terminal cancer, all are brave in the way they are fighting the horrid, horrid disease that is cancer (and before ranters even come on, yes, I've lost relatives to cancer) but sadly, all three will die of the disease before long. We did not give them the disease, or even the media spotlight.

 

Consider, if you will, Ross Davidson.

 

I think to be fair, looking at the thread, we gave him a hard time, very little respect. But my over-riding memory of the man now will always be not his acting, but the courageous way he battled his brain tumour, and the way he took the news he was destined to die. I couldn't even imagine myself in the same situation, but I'd hope I'd take it as he did.

 

Yet there was no moral outrage from us re people picking him on a DDP. Indeed, didn't Godot himself pick Ross & John Spencer, who also had terminal cancer, on his DDP???

 

Also, ultimately, if I knew I was doomed and used the media tools available to me, I'd be perfectly happy with being placed on a dead pool. Death is as much a part of life as anything else.

 

It's truly sad, and you know, far too many people die before their time, but there's nothing we can do about it. It's up to us to play within the rules of what essentially is a game. Although I have picked her, and have felt the pang of moral right & wrong already, if she lives on another year or many years, I will be delighted for her.

And if she does die, then I will be sorry for her family & friends, take the points & keep shtum. I certainly won't feel my points are "dirty" points, because couldn't that be said about other candidates?

 

 

Also, to give another example re. friends. Len Sutton, who died this week, was a friend of mine. He was a lovely, lovely dear man, a fine racing driver no less. But he was so, SO ill with cancer, I knew he was going to die. Had he lasted until January, I may've had no choice but to put him on (maybe not DDP because of UK obits) but some dead pool. My decision would be taken in the confines of the game, and not personally. For what it's also worth, I hate having to put Ferenc Puskas on the list and took no pleasure from his points, but that's the rules of the game.

 

So, basically I won't apologise for putting her on. But neither will I castigate those that do, or shake my head in bewilderement of those that don't.

[Godot 149]

Moral superiority TF? No, as others have pointed out I'm down in the sewer with my Big Cs. Billy no mates, me.

You can't compare Josie Grove with Tammy Faye Messner. One has everything to live for. The other is a tired old Bible puncher with an air conditioned dog house. Weasels is too kind a word. I was thinking of worms. Go ahead, list her, then preen yourself when she dies and you move up a few notches on the DDP.

[Tempus Fugit 214]

.