Guest Guest Posted December 21, 2005 Maybe. I do agree that upbringing (parents/friends/socialisation/etc) plays a big role. Absolutely. I just think it's a bit dangerous to say that it's the end-all-and-be-all of what controls our behaviour. After all' date=' I don't think that [i']anyone[/i] has a "perfect" upbringing, though unquestionably some have it worse - much worse - than others. I wonder if they didn't do what they did precisely because they DID know that it was wrong. Quite. I think that the 'upbringing' is the be-all-and-end-all. People are a product of their environment. It's a complex thing with an infinite number of interactions to consider, but what else can infludence people - we're all born the same. I'm minded to recall an episode when I was on a bus travelling through a less then desirable council estate in Swansea. Dad was praising what I presume his son (aged about 6) for muttering 'f*****g pig' as a response to the sighting of a police officer. I can only wonder what type of 19 year old the boy is now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
in eternum+ 20 Posted December 21, 2005 Quite. I think that the 'upbringing' is the be-all-and-end-all. People are a product of their environment. It's a complex thing with an infinite number of interactions to consider, but what else can infludence people - we're all born the same. I'm minded to recall an episode when I was on a bus travelling through a less then desirable council estate in Swansea. Dad was praising what I presume his son (aged about 6) for muttering 'f*****g pig' as a response to the sighting of a police officer. I can only wonder what type of 19 year old the boy is now. I agree with you; I think people are, to a very great degree, a product of their environment, and I can easily see myself arguing your point of view. However, even as I type this I don't think it's that simple. There has got to be at least some modicum of agency/rationality involved. People (of all ages) can and do think for themselves, make their own decisions, weigh up pros and cons, etc. I think that environment comes into it there: it influences how those decisions are made, but it doesn't change the fact that it's rational individuals who make them. Thompson and Venables had a choice, and elected to do what they did. However, it's environment that provided them with the tools to assess the pros and cons of that decision. Geez... whoever thought I'd be arguing rational action theory 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tomb raider 9 Posted December 21, 2005 There has got to be at least some modicum of agency/rationality involved. People (of all ages) can and do think for themselves, make their own decisions, weigh up pros and cons, etc. No, they can't. First of all: empathy develops rather late in a child (I believe somewhere in their fourth year), and in many children with a disturbed upbringing it does not develop at all. Being psychopathic (which means: not experiencing empathy) is a more common diagnosis than you might think. I'm not sure if the Bulger-murderers would fit this description, but their obvious lack of empathy can have medical causes, and they should be pitied for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cowboy Ronnie 77 Posted December 21, 2005 raider+Dec 20 2005, 11:27 PM--> QUOTE(Tom( raider @ Dec 20 2005, 11:27 PM) no civilized country (except for the good old U.S. of A.) allows the death penalty to be executed on minors. Since March 1st this year the United States no longer allows those who committed the relevant crime whilst a minor to be sentenced to death. Who said the age of enlightenment had ended? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lady Die 63 Posted December 21, 2005 Since March 1st this year the United States no longer allows those who committed the relevant crime whilst a minor to be sentenced to death. Who said the age of enlightenment had ended? Well that's OK then. Such a humane country. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tomb raider 9 Posted December 21, 2005 raider+Dec 20 2005, 11:27 PM-->QUOTE(Tom( raider @ Dec 20 2005, 11:27 PM) no civilized country (except for the good old U.S. of A.) allows the death penalty to be executed on minors. Since March 1st this year the United States no longer allows those who committed the relevant crime whilst a minor to be sentenced to death. Who said the age of enlightenment had ended? I beg you pardon, my dear Cowboy. You are, of course, absolutely right. The Supreme Court ruled that the death penalty for murderers under 18 is unconstitutional (though I'm unsure whether the ruling applies to military verdicts). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DevonDeathTrip 2,288 Posted December 21, 2005 I couldn't eat a whole child in one sitting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tomb raider 9 Posted December 21, 2005 Making them an example of evil is unjustified. Tell that to Denise Bulger. I overlooked this remark of yours, which I consider to be even more tasteless than your first post. I wouldn't dare to deny a grieving mother her right to condemn the murderers of her son, no matter how old they were at the time. But as a society, we can't afford to be taken over by emotions when we deal with sick children like the Bulger-murderers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harvester Of Souls 40 Posted December 21, 2005 Children are very remarkable learning machines. To me, the evil that defies comprehension is that which allows and enables children of our society to learn to be murderers by the age of ten. Bravo Sir. With those kind of upbringings, it's somewhat easier to see how the tragic Bulger murder happened. Agreed but they [T&V] knew what was right and wrong and the parents didn't kill that child. Why does our society constantly look for excuses? Where there's blame there's a claim... Oates is right: if we can't blame society there is no hope. Jamie Bulger's death is strewn with victims - himself, his family and his killers. What creates the circumstances that leads to something so terrible? It happened before with the Moors murders and possibly with Mary Bell. It will happen again. All very sad. Can we end this one, perhaps, now? There could be numerous reasons. Maybe T&V were abused kids. Maybe they were allowed to stay up too late. Maybe they drank to much Thunderbird... The issue here is that they subjected a toddler to hours of abuse before sexually molesting him and leaving him to be cut into pieces by a train. They knew the difference between right and wrong and were tried and convicted on that basis. I don't give a s**t what happend to them before they committed the offence the problem here is that they destroyed the life of a child and his family. Children aren't always as innocent and pure as projected hence the subject matter. I find it somewhat staggering that the West awards children a status bordering on Holy, yet continues to believe that they are incapable of independent thought. Excellent point. and they should be pitied for it. Pity child murderers?... the lunatics have taken over the asylum at last.... I overlooked this remark of yours, which I consider to be even more tasteless than your first post. I wouldn't dare to deny a grieving mother her right to condemn the murderers of her son, no matter how old they were at the time. But as a society, we can't afford to be taken over by emotions when we deal with sick children like the Bulger-murderers. Whoop de-f*****g doo! Sick kids? They personify evil. There aren't many that are but these two certainly broke the mold... keep re-reading what they did... then send Denise an email telling her how they're actually sick and have been completely misunderstood... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tempus Fugit 212 Posted December 21, 2005 HOS, you really should stop reading those red top tabloids, they'll rot what's left of your brain. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest HOS Posted December 22, 2005 HOS, you really should stop reading those red top tabloids, they'll rot what's left of your brain. Just perfecting my technique for when I get the editting job at The Mirror. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Oates 21 Posted December 22, 2005 "Following the murder, the boys' mothers— Susan Venables and Ann Thompson—were repeatedly attacked in the street and vilified in the press. Of course children are capable of independent thought - but based only on what they have experienced and learned in their own lives. I'm sure there must be a forum out there for those of us who would like to work out how best to nurture future generations... As for me, I don't want to see another child until term starts again in January! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anubis the Jackal 76 Posted December 22, 2005 I believe the children are our are future Teach them well and let them lead the way Show them all the beauty they possess inside Give them a sense of pride to make it easier Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be Everybody searching for a hero People need someone to look up to I never found anyone to fulfill my needs A lonely place to be So I learned to depend on me I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows If I fail, if I succeed At least I live as I believe No matter what they take from me They can't take away my dignity Because the greatest love of all Is happening to me I found the greatest love of all Inside of me The greatest love of all Is easy to achieve Learning to love yourself It is the greatest love of all I believe the children are our future Teach them well and let them lead the way Show them all the beauty they possess inside Give them a sense of pride to make it easier Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be And if by chance, that special place That you've been dreaming of Leads you to a lonely place Find your strength in love Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lady Die 63 Posted December 22, 2005 As for me, I don't want to see another child until term starts again in January! Are you a teacher? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bald rick 9 Posted December 22, 2005 As for me, I don't want to see another child until term starts again in January! Are you a teacher? Or a dinnerlady? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anubis the Jackal 76 Posted December 22, 2005 As for me, I don't want to see another child until term starts again in January! Are you a teacher? Or a dinnerlady? Or The Child Catcher? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maryportfuncity 10,017 Posted December 22, 2005 Or a pervy in need of a break? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tempus Fugit 212 Posted December 22, 2005 I believe the children are our are future Teach them well and let them lead the way Show them all the beauty they possess inside Give them a sense of pride to make it easier Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be Everybody searching for a hero People need someone to look up to I never found anyone to fulfill my needs A lonely place to be So I learned to depend on me I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows If I fail, if I succeed At least I live as I believe No matter what they take from me They can't take away my dignity Because the greatest love of all Is happening to me I found the greatest love of all Inside of me The greatest love of all Is easy to achieve Learning to love yourself It is the greatest love of all I believe the children are our future Teach them well and let them lead the way Show them all the beauty they possess inside Give them a sense of pride to make it easier Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be And if by chance, that special place That you've been dreaming of Leads you to a lonely place Find your strength in love Flute and bassoon anybody Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Godot 148 Posted December 22, 2005 "Following the murder, the boys' mothers— Susan Venables and Ann Thompson—were repeatedly attacked in the street and vilified in the press. Of course children are capable of independent thought - but based only on what they have experienced and learned in their own lives. I'm sure there must be a forum out there for those of us who would like to work out how best to nurture future generations... As for me, I don't want to see another child until term starts again in January! They F**k you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to but they do. They fill you with the faults they had, And add some extra just for you. But they were f**ked up in their turn By fools in old style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stearn And half at one another's throats. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don't have any kids yourself. Philip Larkin It reads better without the asterisks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Oates 21 Posted December 22, 2005 I believe the children are our are future Teach them well and let them lead the way ...... ...Find your strength in love Fine sentiments. The other 99.99999% of the job is the tricky bit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anubis the Jackal 76 Posted December 22, 2005 They Tuck you up, your mum and dad.They may not mean to but they do. They fill your horlicks cups they had, And add some extra just for you. Pop Larkin Perfick. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Godot 148 Posted December 23, 2005 Anubis, I take my hat off to you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anubis the Jackal 76 Posted December 23, 2005 Thank you Sir, and a very fine titfer it is too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Banshees Scream 107 Posted December 23, 2005 Anubis, I take my hat off to you I say The Jackal well deserves a clapping of the hands but the rattling on the jewelry may only be suitable for Banshees Scream. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YoungWillz 19,076 Posted September 18, 2023 How is a 10 year old an "influencer"? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12531559/Influencer-Yerly-Susa-Lozada-10-dies-horror-motorcycle-crash-bus-Colombia-brother-Yomar-says-God-decided-away.html 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
