The English Language

[TQR 14,352]

20 minutes ago, the_engineer said:

Americans love combining things together.When it's not food it's words. 

They do. Bunch of ‘stunts’.

[Toast 16,063]

1 hour ago, the_engineer said:

Staycation aswell.   

 

That means holiday at home, yes?  A meaningless coinage because when you go away for a holiday you stay somewhere, don't you, be it at a hotel or a campsite or wherever.   Somebody didn't think that one through. 

[RadGuy 1,614]

On 19/10/2019 at 04:48, Toast said:

Prom instead of school disco.

Vacation instead of holiday. 

 

If y'all are using 'prom' to mean 'school disco', I believe that's not just Americanized, but incorrect.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a quick Google search suggests that a 'school disco' in the UK is a relatively informal school dance.

 

In the states, 'prom' is something very specific. A celebration at the end of the school year in high school, with only junior and senior students (the two oldest classes) being allowed to attend. It usually takes place in a banquet hall, tickets cost upwards of $50, a fancy dinner is served, and the music is performed (at least in my school it was) by a live band. Boys are expected to wear tuxedos and girls are expected to wear gowns, and preferably you should show up with a date.

 

So 'prom' is a specific type of school dance.

Another common one is the homecoming dance, part of the larger week-long homecoming celebrations that generally take place in September or October (depending on the school), culminating with a football (gridiron) game on Friday night and a dance on Saturday night. This dance is more informal, taking place in the school gymnasium/fieldhouse, with a DJ performing, and you can get away with wearing just a dress shirt and tie for boys, and a dress for girls.

 

Well I certainly rambled on.

Hope it was informative.

[Toast 16,063]

39 minutes ago, RadGuy said:

If y'all are using 'prom' to mean 'school disco', I believe that's not just Americanized, but incorrect.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a quick Google search suggests that a 'school disco' in the UK is a relatively informal school dance.

In the states, 'prom' is something very specific. A celebration at the end of the school year in high school, with only junior and senior students (the two oldest classes) being allowed to attend. It usually takes place in a banquet hall, tickets cost upwards of $50, a fancy dinner is served, and the music is performed (at least in my school it was) by a live band. Boys are expected to wear tuxedos and girls are expected to wear gowns, and preferably you should show up with a date.

So 'prom' is a specific type of school dance.

 

 

Indeed, the end-of-year school disco has in many places morphed into the type of elaborate do that you describe, along with the extra huge expenses that it brings with it. 

 

I still have no idea what "homecoming" means, despite hearing the Monkees singing about a homecoming queen (whatever that is) many decades ago.

 

While we're on stupid American customs, I have noticed one that has recently been creeping over here at weddings.  That is for the bridesmaids to precede the bride into the church.  How fucking ridiculous.  They are supposed to be there to assist the bride, to carry her train.  They are no use walking in front of her! 

Last Christmas I watched a bride going into church on a wet and windy day.  She had to lift her dress right up and all but tuck it into her knickers to keep it out of the mud and puddles.  If they had kept to tradition with the bridesmaids following her, they would have achieved this in a far more elegant way. 

[time 8,575]

I have no idea what the "foot shake dance challenge" is, apart from what I've learnt from watching the video (and fair dues, they seem to be doing it alright). 

 

The guy tweeting is a teacher. I think the time could have been better spent sorting out his English.

[Toast 16,063]

1 hour ago, time said:

I have no idea what the "foot shake dance challenge" is, apart from what I've learnt from watching the video (and fair dues, they seem to be doing it alright). 

 

The guy tweeting is a teacher. I think the time could have been better spent sorting out his English.

 

Yes, "myself and" really boils my piss too. 

If you're going to be ungrammatical, why not keep it traditional with the old-school "me and". 

I suppose they all think "myself" is correct. 

[TQR 14,352]

13 hours ago, Toast said:

 

Yes, "myself and" really boils my piss too. 

If you're going to be ungrammatical, why not keep it traditional with the old-school "me and". 

I suppose they all think "myself" is correct. 

Or “______ and I...”, surely?

 

One of my old English teachers was really cunty about that.

[time 8,575]

2 hours ago, The Quim Reaper said:

Or “______ and I...”, surely?

 

One of my old English teachers was really cunty about that.

That's the correct grammar. Old school incorrect grammar was always 'me and...' as per Toast, above.

[time 8,575]

16 hours ago, Toast said:

 

Yes, "myself and" really boils my piss too. 

If you're going to be ungrammatical, why not keep it traditional with the old-school "me and". 

I suppose they all think "myself" is correct. 

Yes, I blame The Apprentice. They all misuse it there.

[Toast 16,063]

The test is simple.  What would you say if there's nobody else involved, just you?  To use the example in the quoted tweet

"Instead of working after school, myself and Mrs. B decided to master it."

If we lose Mrs B, would he then say

"Instead of working after school, myself decided to master it" ?

No, he would say

"Instead of working after school, I decided to master it".

 

[TQR 14,352]

26 minutes ago, Toast said:

The test is simple.  What would you say if there's nobody else involved, just you?  To use the example in the quoted tweet

"Instead of working after school, myself and Mrs. B decided to master it."

If we lose Mrs B, would he then say

"Instead of working after school, myself decided to master it" ?

No, he would say

"Instead of working after school, I decided to master it".

 

 

Myself thinks he's a prick.

[Sir Creep 7,069]

Any time you include yourself and another person or people it’s ‘X and I...’

Period.

[time 8,575]

41 minutes ago, Sir Creep said:

Any time you include yourself and another person or people it’s ‘X and I...’

Period.

Anytime??? Au contraire.

 

"The car went through a red light and almost hit (my wife and) I" is clearly nonsense; "The car went through a red light and almost hit (my wife and) me" is correct. 

 

[TQR 14,352]

1 hour ago, time said:

Anytime??? Au contraire.

 

"The car went through a red light and almost hit (my wife and) I" is clearly nonsense; "The car went through a red light and almost hit (my wife and) me" is correct. 

 

 

I'm not sure there's anything nonsensical about having "_____ and I" at the end of a sentence...though personally, I'd just say "the car almost hit us" so as to fuck any of the language's confusing idiosyncrasies to one side.

[Toast 16,063]

7 hours ago, The Quim Reaper said:

 

I'm not sure there's anything nonsensical about having "_____ and I" at the end of a sentence.

 

No.  Apply the same test as earlier:  what would you say if there's nobody else involved, just you? 

You wouldn't say "the car almost hit I".  You would (correctly) say "the car almost hit me".

 

[TQR 14,352]

7 hours ago, Toast said:

 

No.  Apply the same test as earlier:  what would you say if there's nobody else involved, just you? 

You wouldn't say "the car almost hit I".  You would (correctly) say "the car almost hit me".

 

But then you’d just say “us” rather than “___ and me”, surely? 
 

“...and me” just sounds incorrect in pretty much every context. Though I wouldn’t dispute what you’re saying about ending a sentence with “I”; the only one who can get away with that is a walrus in that Lewis Carroll poem.

[En Passant 3,731]

Withnail and me? Marley and I? 

 

[TQR 14,352]

33 minutes ago, En Passant said:

Withnail and me? Marley and I? 

 

 

Ah bollocks. This is too tricky.

 

Marley and Myself it is.

[Toast 16,063]

1 hour ago, En Passant said:

Withnail and me? Marley and I? 

 

 

Interesting article and comments. 

I think he gets right to the heart of it with "some people are scared of using me".

 

As for the quoted titles.  They are not complete sentences, and I agree that "there's no way of deciding what the 'underlying' sentence might be". 

So it might be understood as "(This is the story of) Marley and me" or "Withnail and I (visit his uncle)". 

[time 8,575]

3 hours ago, The Quim Reaper said:

 

Ah bollocks. This is too tricky.

 

Marley and Myself it is.

I was musing on song titles...

• Me & Bobbie McGee
• Me & Julio Down by the Schoolyard
• Me & Mrs Jones
• Me & My Shadow

 

I think this is the only acceptable option

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kavu_vuD2QM

 

 

[Toast 16,063]

I have noticed that it has apparently become de rigueur to describe any death as sad.

People have suddenly stopped reporting simply that "X has died", it's always "X has sadly died".

I find this annoying because it's a thoughtless cliché.  Sometimes people are happy to die, sometimes it's a blessed release, sometimes it's actually good riddance.  Just stop it.

[msc 18,397]

Dont read the DDP Terry Jones obit then!

 

Although I stand by that - him dying and the manner of his death, that illness, are both sad things.

 

Others like, say, Hattersley, Tebbit and Bible John would not get that!

 

[Although Last Words obit of Roger Scruton kept talking about how tragic and sad it was...]

[Joey Russ 7,210]

Only Doris Day and Robert Mugabe has sadly died in their actual obits from the crowdsource obits from my era, and one of them one was used quite satirically...

[TQR 14,352]

“X has delightfully died at the age of N”

[Toast 16,063]

34 minutes ago, msc said:

Dont read the DDP Terry Jones obit then!

Although I stand by that - him dying and the manner of his death, that illness, are both sad things.

 

Others like, say, Hattersley, Tebbit and Bible John would not get that!

[Although Last Words obit of Roger Scruton kept talking about how tragic and sad it was...]

 

No, it's fine to express personal sadness, obviously, but suddenly "sadly died" seems to have become an automatic soundbite (or whatever the equivalent is for the written word.)  When people use these phrases out of habit they become meaningless.

 

Another one that intrigues me is "turned" for a birthday.  People used to say "X will be 21 next week" or more formally "X will celebrate her 21st birthday next Friday", but you never hear that now.  Everybody "turns".  This is quite recent too.