Dead Pool Ethics

[Dead Ringos 0]

Hi all,

 

4 year veteran of the DDP, but first post here. I figured I'd join in because, well, where's the fun of keeping yourself to yourself?

 

Anyway whilst picking my DDP team this year I came up against an interesting ethical question. I actually came up against it last year as well, but kept quiet to see how it played out.

 

The question is...would you ever refuse to pick someone because, even though they're a legitimate pick, it feels wrong?

 

In my case, I know of a person who (a) had a high probability of dying last year, (b ) has an even higher probability of dying this year, ( c) would have been a unique pick last year, and probably this year as well, and (d) almost certainly will be mentioned in the national papers when they die. As an added sweetener, this person is under 40.

 

But I didn't pick them because I know the family of this person (though I've never met him/her). Just to make it clear, this family doesn't know I play in the DDP, and even if they did, they wouldn't know my team. So it's not a question of being found out.

 

Also, when I was drawing up my 2012 team, my brother was making suggestions, and independently he suggested this person as well (I'd already considered and rejected him/her). We both looked at each other and shook our heads. Extremely good pick...but no.. It just felt wrong.

 

Would you do the same? Where do you draw the line?

 

And no, I'm not telling you the name

[torbrexbones 717]

In a Dead Pool, the only line to be drawn is the line through the name of the deceased.

[Spade_Cooley 9,536]

Man, I'd have picked that Amanat Indian rape victim broad as my 2013 team captain if she hadn't had the poor grace to die before 2013 started. Deadpooling is a sport where we embrace moral relativism and then 12 months later The Living End wins again.

[maryportfuncity 10,647]

Man, I'd have picked that Amanat Indian rape victim broad as my 2013 team captain if she hadn't had the poor grace to die before 2013 started. Deadpooling is a sport where we embrace moral relativism and then 12 months later The Living End wins again.

 

An early contender for post of the year, if such a thing still existed. I'll confess to some ethical issues where people I truly admire - Neil Young, Wilko Johnson - are concerned, but I'd concur with Spade and torbrexbones where this business is concerned. Re the Indian Rape victim, we did have a similar issue on the first Deathrace when Paul the Postie and his mates were savvy enough to find a local paper in Northern Ireland online and get the name of the rabies case busy dying in a local hospital. She'd been named before her family indicated they wanted her name kept out. I logged her without realising who she was, but points were duly awarded because - frankly - she qualified under the rules, end of.

[Spade_Cooley 9,536]

I think another thing to remember is: everyone we (or at least everyone a top-line player will) pick is someone whose ill-health has been put out there into the public domain: we're not hacking doctors' registries to find the names of terminal cancer patients. The majority of picks are people who have themselves gone to newspapers and said "I have a brain tumour. I have pancreatic cancer. I have x months to live".

 

I think this especially matters for your Katherine Crowe/Dr Kate Grainger/Lisa Lynch picks: we wouldn't know who these people are if it wasn't for the fact they'd spoken up and said "I'm dying of cancer". All we're doing on the DDP is agreeing with them: yes, you are.

[Handrejka 1,904]

I tend not to pick people who are only famous for being ill as I don't tend to find them particularly interesting. I've no moral problem with it, as Spade Cooley says, all we would be doing is utilising information already provided to us.

 

The only issue I have is with people, without prior fame/notoriety, who are in persistent vegetative states, have dementia of some sort, or who are children or with the mental age of children, basically people who aren't in a position to give consent about their health information. People like Margaret Thatcher or Ariel Sharon, yes, Bonnie Suchet or some random woman in a coma, no.

 

On a personal level, I know quite a few people who know Katherine Crowe ,and I quite fancy one of them, so excluded her just in case I eventually pull him as it would make for rather odd pillow talk.

[Banshees Scream 110]

I think this especially matters for your Katherine Crowe/Dr Kate Grainger/Lisa Lynch picks: we wouldn't know who these people are if it wasn't for the fact they'd spoken up and said "I'm dying of cancer". All we're doing on the DDP is agreeing with them: yes, you are.

 

I don't understand why some of our prime contributors are so sold on fundraisers hanging low. I'm surprised DDT sprinted ahead and choose Lynch as his joker, I thought he was more of a Kony\Madoff\Dr. Jack fan. I think most of the telegraph stories are sad and very exaggerated so I stay away from them. Hey Mary, what's Trudi been up to?

[Windsor 2,233]

Deadpooling is a sport...

 

Not really. It's more like shooting fish in barrels these days.

Instead of choosing legitimate famous people, more and more we are forced to choose ill people who might just get the smallest of mentions in the media, mainly because of the illness they suffer from.

 

It would be impossible for any organiser to 'legislate' against such pics because it would be impossible to know where to draw the line.

The only thing that could be done would be to compile a 'blacklist' - but again there will always be one who slips through.

 

I don't apply ethics to my DDP team. If I did, it would be pointless entering.

[Death Impends 7,979]

I do have some limits - I ultimately couldn't bring myself to pick Anne Williams, and there are some people I admire enough that I won't pick 'em should they become ill - but for the most part I try to separate conscience from deadpooling. Katherine Crowe types are alright with me. I don't really like the fact there has to be a few famous-for-being-ill types on a team if one wants a serious shot at a respectable output, but I don't feel discomfort from picking them.

[themaninblack 2,112]

As DDP host, my most vexing issue is that of Anne Williams. Being a Liverpool supporter makes me especially sensitive to this and I'm going to tread carefully here. May not have a picture and minimal information. Last thing I want is a shit storm from fellow supporters. It's awkward enough having links to the Sun (because it the only source of an obit) but that's the compromised position you can find yourself in.

 

I concur with what Windsor said about the type of picks chosen. As you will find out soon, the new picks reflect a more cut throat aspect to dead pooling. There are less of the oddball celebrity choices with the odd exception in among the theme teams...

[charon 4,943]

Anne Williams I have no probs picking, and after watching Heysel..................

[Spade_Cooley 9,536]

Anne Williams I have no probs picking, and after watching Heysel..................

 

[Godot 149]

We've had a lot of debate about this over the years and I'm a lot happier about the rules these days. As I get older, there are more obit worthy people I know who are also getting older and frailer. I've missed one or two hits from not running them but, if I know them, well, it seems a shitty thing to stick them in the pool. It's a bit like being in a trench with a good mate on the front line and coveting his boots. You care about your mate, sure enough, but you can't stop thinking about those boots.*

 

That said, I wouldn't mind if anyone deathlisted me. Come to think of it, I haven't been too clever lately!

 

*See Kemmerich, All Quiet on the Western Front

[maryportfuncity 10,647]

I tend not to pick people who are only famous for being ill as I don't tend to find them particularly interesting. I've no moral problem with it, as Spade Cooley says, all we would be doing is utilising information already provided to us.

 

The only issue I have is with people, without prior fame/notoriety, who are in persistent vegetative states, have dementia of some sort, or who are children or with the mental age of children, basically people who aren't in a position to give consent about their health information. People like Margaret Thatcher or Ariel Sharon, yes, Bonnie Suchet or some random woman in a coma, no.

 

On a personal level, I know quite a few people who know Katherine Crowe ,and I quite fancy one of them, so excluded her just in case I eventually pull him as it would make for rather odd pillow talk.

 

 

WHAT!!!?

 

You can talk in bed as well?

 

Me and Mrs MPFC might give it a go. I'll keep yers posted!

[Spade_Cooley 9,536]

I like to "keep the wolf from the door" by calculating how many points Van Cliburn dying on the 13th of October would net me.

[DevonDeathTrip 2,358]

Instead of choosing legitimate famous people, more and more we are forced to choose ill people who might just get the smallest of mentions in the media, mainly because of the illness they suffer from.

 

How do you mean "forced" ?

[thefunkyfaz 51]

I'm with Mr Ringos on this one. A friend of mine is the son of an actress who appeared in some films from the 50s, 60s and 70s and died a couple of years back. I knew she was on her way (a mixture of Alzheimers & cancer) and I also knew the emotional turmoil her son went through. She would definitely have been an exclusive pick and did get a UK obit, but I just couldn't pick her.

[Windsor 2,233]

Instead of choosing legitimate famous people, more and more we are forced to choose ill people who might just get the smallest of mentions in the media, mainly because of the illness they suffer from.

 

How do you mean "forced" ?

 

Quite simple. If you wish to compete, you are forced to choose very ill people who aren't really that famous.

I haven't a clue who John Derbyshire is, but I gather he isn't very well - so he's on my DDP. If Anne Williams didn't have cancer, she would be of no note to any of us - but again she is on my DDP. It's shit, but we have to pick folk like that because there are so many other young, ill nobodies who will be chosen, and will score points for other teams.

 

If we don't sink to the levels of some teams, there would be no point in entering.

[Spade_Cooley 9,536]

Instead of choosing legitimate famous people, more and more we are forced to choose ill people who might just get the smallest of mentions in the media, mainly because of the illness they suffer from.

 

How do you mean "forced" ?

 

Quite simple. If you wish to compete, you are forced to choose very ill people who aren't really that famous.

I haven't a clue who John Derbyshire is, but I gather he isn't very well - so he's on my DDP. If Anne Williams didn't have cancer, she would be of no note to any of us - but again she is on my DDP. It's shit, but we have to pick folk like that because there are so many other young, ill nobodies who will be chosen, and will score points for other teams.

 

If we don't sink to the levels of some teams, there would be no point in entering.

 

John Derbyshire's the third most famous alumnus from my high school, behind Matt Smith and Alan Moore.

[themaninblack 2,112]

Whatshername from News At Ten was in my sister's year in the 1980s. Apparently she was a bit of a bully...

 

A an ex-classmate of mine once made the front cover of my local newspaper, but only because he was stabbed to death in Chile...

[themaninblack 2,112]

Anne Williams I have no probs picking, and after watching Heysel..................

 

You would also recognise that Belgian cops are shit too?

[DevonDeathTrip 2,358]

Instead of choosing legitimate famous people, more and more we are forced to choose ill people who might just get the smallest of mentions in the media, mainly because of the illness they suffer from.

 

How do you mean "forced" ?

 

Quite simple. If you wish to compete, you are forced to choose very ill people who aren't really that famous.

I haven't a clue who John Derbyshire is, but I gather he isn't very well - so he's on my DDP. If Anne Williams didn't have cancer, she would be of no note to any of us - but again she is on my DDP. It's shit, but we have to pick folk like that because there are so many other young, ill nobodies who will be chosen, and will score points for other teams.

 

If we don't sink to the levels of some teams, there would be no point in entering.

 

I'm not sure that's actually the case. Have a look at the top ten teams in last years DDP, your own included. Note the names of all of the hits that they accrued between them and you'll see that hardly any of them were in the same morally dubious league as Anne Williams. They were newsworthy before whatever sad diagnosis they received. At a brief glance, the only questionable hits I could find were Winnie Johnston (she WAS pretty well known, tbh) and Anthonia Onouha (and - please don't think I'm being smug here, I'm just trying to make the point - even if you struck Onouha from my team, I would still have won)

 

So leaving the ethics of it behind, I don't think stacking your DDP team with terminally ill tabloid cannon fodder is necessarily the way to achieve success, especially when you consider the inherent risks of the more obscure picks dying without any interest from the press. ...Norfolk'n'Good very nearly went all the way to the top and their team was full of postively famous people.

[themaninblack 2,112]

As you'll all soon see at the weekend (hopefully?), something of a deadpooling arms race has developed and it seems one or two have a had a few long, dark nights of the soul before committing their highly competitive teams in. You better hope it's all worth it.

 

We might get accused of a sort moral hypocrisy over being too prissy over certain picks. This year I've had to exclude a couple of under-aged candidates and an animal (one or two teams not reading the rules). Maybe they should have been in too. What's the line that we draw? Anne Williams is indeed a queasy choice but well within the rules (over 18). Dead pooling is one of the most amoral facets of the internet but in it's moral relativistic way, it's almost immune from criticism...

[Estuarian Float 97]

I consider people like Katherine Crowe, Grace Sung Eun Lee, Zach Sobiech, etc... to be guilt-free, fair game because they seek the publicity. But I did once play a little boy who was maybe 5. Probably shouldnt have done that. As his only obit was his local news and now I have his name on my non DDP deadpooling history in my "about me". Hope his parents never see that...... maybe I should abbreviate his name....

[Bibliogryphon 9,586]

I had to read the riot act to a couple of my players this year who wanted to play the Duchess of Cambridge's unborn child as their wildcard. One of them accepted my ruling and the other just played Kate instead.