The EU Referendum Hokey Cokey

[Grim Up North 3,725]

4 minutes ago, Deathray said:

 

Don't even need to do that. Just get them to rank them 1-10 and the one with most overall support wins.

 

Yeah that would work too but less Bercow action with your option so I prefer mine. 

 

Or or even better they could have a Brexit options World Cup with the top 32 possibilities all drawn into 8 groups of 4 and playing off against each other in a series of round robin votes with top 2 in each group going through to last 16 and it being straight knockout from there through to final.

 

Ooooh the drama.............

[DevonDeathTrip 2,358]

I'm quite relaxed with the idea of No Deal in eleven days time.  Yes there will be some turbulence, but we will cope and gather strength in adversity. 

 

Besides, they say that crisis is the best aid to socialist electoral success. So if it follows that we end up in a Corbynite utopia, unfettered by the pro-austerity, anti-nationalisation constraints of the Lisbon Treaty, then I'm happy with that.

 

I did very reluctantly vote Remain in the referendum.  If we have another vote forced upon us, I will definitely be voting Leave.  Time to shake ourselves out of this paralysis, to move on and to start concentrating on the real issues which divide our society rather than faffing about in the forlorn hope we might eventually come to any sort of consensus on how we may deliver on the will of the electorate.  

[YoungWillz 21,014]

Let them stand in front their electorates.

 

Local authorities using the last of their money to strengthen the lampposts from which many will swing.

 

Feel you aren't listened to or represented at Westminster? Welcome to Scotland, 1978-present day.

[paddyfool 379]

12 hours ago, DevonDeathTrip said:

I'm quite relaxed with the idea of No Deal in eleven days time.  Yes there will be some turbulence, but we will cope and gather strength in adversity. 

 

Besides, they say that crisis is the best aid to socialist electoral success. So if it follows that we end up in a Corbynite utopia, unfettered by the pro-austerity, anti-nationalisation constraints of the Lisbon Treaty, then I'm happy with that.

 

I did very reluctantly vote Remain in the referendum.  If we have another vote forced upon us, I will definitely be voting Leave.  Time to shake ourselves out of this paralysis, to move on and to start concentrating on the real issues which divide our society rather than faffing about in the forlorn hope we might eventually come to any sort of consensus on how we may deliver on the will of the electorate.  

 

I doubt very much that a "Corbynite utopia" or a lack of faff is what a No Deal would lead to.

 

1) Leaving the EU, especially with a No Deal exit, is more likely to push the country to the right than the left. Something like 98% of the MPs pushing for no deal are thoroughly right wing; the ERG etc like the idea of a hard brexit partly because the EU in general is to the left of the UK, partly because they have a vision for the UK post EU where it becomes about as right wing as Singapore and partly because it avoids upcoming EU legislation to limit tax avoidance. And any economic harm the UK suffers will likely be used to justify more cuts and austerity to avoid "unaffordable" payments.

 

2) Leaving the EU with no deal also creates a ton of extra faff for the country which will further distract from sorting out other issues for years to come. Faff from legal battles with our erstwhile allies in Europe pursuing us for the funds we'd previously committed for, eg, the pensions funds for people working for us within the EU; faff with determining our WTO status; faff with renegotiating trade deals with the rest of the world; and faff with recreating independent versions of all the institutions and agencies where we'd previously pooled our resources with the EU (see here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agencies_of_the_European_Union). 

 

If you want lack of faff and a more leftwing path for the UK, the best option is revocation of article 50, eg with a second ref, and remaining.

[msc 18,421]

I'm usually quite content to let everyone else moan on both sides here, but since DDT spoke out,  a brief bit:

 

One of my closest pals, suffering from a killer but stable incurable illness, has been told by both the NHS and Department of Health that, on a No Deal Brexit, the medicine keeping their condition stable will not be imported into the UK, due to price/commonality of need. The prognosis is 6 weeks without it. All the sexy killer illnesses medicine (you know, breast cancer, asthma, etc) have a route FOR NOW due to necessity and numbers, through English stockpiles and Ireland, naturally, can't harm those big salaried charity bosses. Anyhow, this is not the fault of Corbyn, Remain voters, the SNP, Lord Fellatio Nelson leave voters or any other potential media scapegoat. Solely the guilt of the current Westminster government, who have had 3 years to plan in case of emergencies and done FUCK ALL.

 

Anyhow, even though the medicine that helps keeps me alive is safeguarded for now, I am 100% opposed to no deal Brexit. Turkeys, early Christmas, voting, etc...

[paddyfool 379]

Good point MSC - I'd somehow forgotten to mention the issues from interrupted food supplies, medical supplies, industrial components etc while talking about a few other complications of a no deal Brexit in my little rant on faff.

[DevonDeathTrip 2,358]

I quite like the idea of the sharp shock as a result of No Deal and then watching as society recalibrates itself.  If the unfolding catastrophe is as bad as some have predicted (it won't be) then I maintain that a subsequent election will deliver us a left-wing rather than a right-wing government.  Indeed I can see some parallels here with Labour's landslide victory of 1945.

 

There will be blood on the streets if we end up subverting the will of the people by cancelling Brexit.  There is nothing wrong with giving the Establishment a good kicking every now and again and I'm afraid I don't have much time for a rather shrill minority of Remainers who seem to have temporarily eschewed the very notion of democracy in order to loudly dictate what should happen next. 

 

That said, I do recognise that this is a subject which continues to raise strong emotions and I have some sympathy with those who are upset about the referendum result. Their experience seems to me to mirror the five stages of grief; denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance...this clamour for a new referendum looks distinctly like the bargaining stage to me. Sadly, I fear it may be a very long time before many progress to acceptance.

[Bibliogryphon 9,565]

2 hours ago, DevonDeathTrip said:

I quite like the idea of the sharp shock as a result of No Deal and then watching as society recalibrates itself.  If the unfolding catastrophe is as bad as some have predicted (it won't be) then I maintain that a subsequent election will deliver us a left-wing rather than a right-wing government.  Indeed I can see some parallels here with Labour's landslide victory of 1945.

 

There will be blood on the streets if we end up subverting the will of the people by cancelling Brexit.  There is nothing wrong with giving the Establishment a good kicking every now and again and I'm afraid I don't have much time for a rather shrill minority of Remainers who seem to have temporarily eschewed the very notion of democracy in order to loudly dictate what should happen next. 

 

That said, I do recognise that this is a subject which continues to raise strong emotions and I have some sympathy with those who are upset about the referendum result. Their experience seems to me to mirror the five stages of grief; denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance...this clamour for a new referendum looks distinctly like the bargaining stage to me. Sadly, I fear it may be a very long time before many progress to acceptance.

 

I think part of the problem has been the subversion of that process.

 

I pretty much went straight to anger but then fairly quickly to acceptance thinking that if this is going to happen then it should be done in a way that works best for all sectors and regions in the UK. The initial clamours for the second referendum were initially fairly muted and it wasn't until the questions began to be raised about the activity of the leave vote and then the absolute hopeless way the Withdrawal agreement has been negotiated, becoming a proxy war for the leadership of the Conservative party, that the campaign gained ground. There is no sense in bargaining so I am now back to fluctuating between depression and anger.

 

However this is not the end game the echoes of Brexit will dominate at least the next two election cycles. More if Brexit is cancelled.

[DevonDeathTrip 2,358]

On a lighter note, I see that the infamous Neil Horan has his own peculiar take on the Brexit debate. 

 

[paddyfool 379]

Heh - that was the counterprotestor I saw at the people's vote march. 

 

The issue with wrecking ball votes aimed at the establishment is that the establishment generally end up in control of the wrecking ball if anyone does. See, for instance, how sons of privilege like Rees-Mogg, BoJo and Farage have ended up as faces of Brexit. 

 

As for "blood in the streets", there have certainly been plenty of death threats put out there by those who seem keen to emulate the killing of Jo Cox. But I don't think it makes any sense to bow to the will of those threatening political violence.  Or to talk up the threat of it, since that will probably encourage some people or be taken as justification by them. And all the polling would indicate that the overall will of the people has changed. 

[torbrexbones 717]

The same tories that rebelled against May and caused her plan to get rejected 3 times are now saying that she is a traitor for going to the Labour party to ask what needs to change to get their support. All this does is show how much that politics is blocking Brexit and not the actual doing of a deal.

 

Get the job done, that's what you are paid to do.

[YoungWillz 21,014]

Watching PMQs.

 

Backbench Tories detest the idea of going to Corbyn to seek a compromise. What they forget is what the Tory Party happily did to the Lib Dems, they are now trying to do to Labour.

 

Stewart Hosie is right - why should Corbyn co-author anything? His first premise should be that the Withdrawal Agreement having been rejected and supported less than several other options, that should be off the table. If that can't be done, Jezza should use Tezza's own argument and walk out saying "no deal".

 

Anyhow, if this is the state of Westminster now, just imagine how wonderful it would be when they have all the powers back, all the law-making, etc etc.

 

[Deathray 2,940]

Looks like May's attempt to share the blame for Brexit with the Labour party has worked.

 

They've agreed a "programme of work" to try and "break the deadlock in parliament"

 

Could we finally be getting out of stalemate?

[Lord Fellatio Nelson 6,218]

3 hours ago, Deathray said:

Looks like May's attempt to share the blame for Brexit with the Labour party has worked.

 

They've agreed a "programme of work" to try and "break the deadlock in parliament"

 

Could we finally be getting out of stalemate?

No.

[Deathray 2,940]

34 minutes ago, Lord Fellatio Nelson said:

No.

 

Shortly afterwards Corbyn described the talks as "useful but inconclusive"

[Deathray 2,940]

 

Huge. Looks like the agreement between May and Corbyn may well include a confirmatory referendum. 

[Deathray 2,940]

 

[Deathray 2,940]

MPs have backed the bill to force the government to ask for an extension, 313-312

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47809717

[YoungWillz 21,014]

Is anyone else finding the language of Brexit highly entertaining?

 

Brexiteer - suffix -eer generally associated with loan words from French.

Conversely, Remainer or Remoaner - suffix -er generally British.

 

Farage - French Huguenot surname.

 

Impasse - it is French.

 

Watch out for any more - makes me chuckle.

[Bibliogryphon 9,565]

1 hour ago, YoungWillz said:

Is anyone else finding the language of Brexit highly entertaining?

 

Brexiteer - suffix -eer generally associated with loan words from French.

Conversely, Remainer or Remoaner - suffix -er generally British.

 

Farage - French Huguenot surname.

 

Impasse - it is French.

 

Watch out for any more - makes me chuckle.

I often wonder if Mark Francois is over compensating because his surname sounds so foreign

[torbrexbones 717]

20 hours ago, Deathray said:

MPs have backed the bill to force the government to ask for an extension, 313-312

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47809717

and if the EU says no to an extension?

[TQR 14,384]

1 hour ago, torbrexbones said:

and if the EU says no to an extension?

 

We die horrible, agonising deaths.

[Deathray 2,940]

3 hours ago, torbrexbones said:

and if the EU says no to an extension?

 

They'll vote to revoke A50 before Brexit day.

[torbrexbones 717]

11 hours ago, The Quim Reaper said:

 

We die horrible, agonising deaths.

I am doing that already so will I get a rebate?

[paddyfool 379]

Good article on the extension question from someone on a quite different point on the political spectrum to myself: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/?fbclid=IwAR3TvLsubz4A23tpQrJmiJ2BV7oqjADfgsjgbp0Cnu_sa042IFx1aK92xxY