The English Language

[Godot 149]

This ought to be pinned as a cumulative Deathlist "style guide" for posters. It's not definitive but that's exactly the point. It warns people that good sentence structure and attention to grammar still matter.

[honez 79]

[This thread makes good reading. It makes me nostalgic in a way. Whatever happened to Honez and LPIII?

I can't speak for LPIII, but I've been pretty busy of late. I've hardly had chance to skim through DL, let alone persecute anyone over their grammar or religious convictions.

Unfortunately/fortunately* this isn't likely to change any time soon. Sigh.

 

* Take your pick.

[Lady Die 63]

The thing that grates on me more than anything is when people say "haitch" .... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tuber Mirum 125]

[This thread makes good reading. It makes me nostalgic in a way. Whatever happened to Honez and LPIII?

I can't speak for LPIII, but I've been pretty busy of late. I've hardly had chance to skim through DL, let alone persecute anyone over their grammar or religious convictions.

Unfortunately/fortunately* this isn't likely to change any time soon. Sigh.

 

* Take your pick.

Fair enough.

 

I suppose if I'd written a bestselling smash-hit book and was consequently on Easy Street, I too would spend all day sipping on Pinas Colada and getting annointed with Coconut Oil by Willing Slave Girls, rather than toiling away on deathlist.net like a bloody fool.

 

Must go now, got the Mods' monthly Jumble Sale to organise. No rest for the wicked.

 

[Six 23]

The thing that grates on me more than anything is when people say "haitch" .... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I know what you mean, but my pet-hate is when people use double negatives. Do they not realise that they cancel out any point that they were trying to make? Grrrrr.

[TLC 9]

The thing that grates on me more than anything is when people say "haitch" .... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

I know what you mean, but my pet-hate is when people use double negatives. Do they not realise that they cancel out any point that they were trying to make? Grrrrr.

You've probably heard it before, but I always like the story about the University Lecturer, er, lecturing about the use of double negatives making a positive and so cancelling each other out. He then said, "However, there are no cases in the English language where a double positive makes a negative."

 

To which one of the students replied, "Yeah, right."*

 

*I know strictly speaking it's still not true as only the sarcasm in the voice makes it a negative, but still quite a good response I think.

[beebee 1]

never use a preposition with which to end a sentence, because that is something up with which i will not put.

[Canadian Paul 97]

Those who start a sentence with "however" must be promptly shot.

[Gunjaman5000 32]

The excessive use of 'actually' gives me the tom tits.

[Josco 49]

Godot, I too have been pulled off...I mean pulled up for 'Begging the question.' Since I'd only done it to be ironic I thought the puller a mite pedantic. Fer F**k's sake, a little leeway regarding grammar should be allowed hereabouts. It's summat we northern types would appreciate. We're not asking owt else of yers.

Try telling that to Josco, our resident Northern pedant.

 

Back in the good old days, we had a similar thread. Started by none other than the lost LPIII, with the purpose of having a go at the grammar of The Grim Reaper himself, believe it or not.

 

(Whilst searching for that thread, I came upon the interestingly-named "Does anyone actually like Windsor?" thread. Sadly now dead and on the scrapheap under a pile of old cast-iron bathtubs. I'd forgotten about that one. )

[snip]........ it doesn't matter - wacking this out quickly, it does. [/snip]

 

.

 

Missing an "haitch". (Sorry Lady Die)

[Bald rick 9]

One of my pet hates (mainly with spoken English) is the overuse of 'myself' instead of 'I' or 'me'. Just because the word has more syllables, people think it makes them sound more erudite. It doesn't. It just makes them sound like a pillock.

 

And another thing - why do people say 'work colleagues'? What other sort of colleague is there?

[deeuu 0]

Those who start a sentence with "however" must be promptly shot.

 

Being a tad pedantic here, but that should be "However,"

[TLC 9]

Those who start a sentence with "however" must be promptly shot.

Thank the lord you don't live near me then! It's something I'm aware of, and try to limit myself to two or three per day. However Hopefully I might be able to give up completely in the near future. I have to do the same with my use of the word actually; I hate it but I can't edit everything grammatically dubious every time I post. Still, not as bad as "To be perfectly honest," as if that's some sort of a guarantee of honesty.

 

Since I'm confessing, my biggest grammatical sins are: -

• I use brackets all the time making sentences very long and fragmented.
  
• Using a succession of commas rather than starting new sentences.
  
• The occasional misuse of apostrophes, mostly involving possesive ones in the wrong place. I don't use them for plurals though, which I find more annoying.
  
• I also use "myself" instead of "I", but realise the problem and try and correct it when I notice it in the wrong context.
  
• Use of semicolons to yet again avoid ending a sentence.
  
• Finishing at least one sentence per post with...... I like to think it's for dramatic effect, but presumably (another of my pet words; oh no, brackets & semicolon combo) it looks lazy.
  

In my defence I very rarely make spelling mistakes, I usually remember to use capitals and I like to use lots of paragraphs. I just have trouble trying not to write in the same way that I speak; believe me when I say my posts are much better constructed than my speech. I have a terrible habit of changing topic mid-sentence, which might be why I'm starting to spend more time online typing to people.

 

Can anyone suggest suitable punishment for my sins? Are there more mistakes I've missed that are even worse? Does anyone care? What are split infinitives, and am I guilty?

[Tuber Mirum 125]

I have a lot of annoying habits when I write.

 

Such as using too many paragraphs.

 

And starting sentences with "And", "But," or "However,", not to mention constructing the same sort of long, rambling formless sentences about which Mr. TLC has just written with lots of commas and stuff, and I say "probably" far too much.

 

But I do it deliberately so it's all right.

 

I think it was King Edward VII who was spotted wearing brown shoes with blue trousers, an unforgivable sartorial sin in those days.

When confronted, he said: "Yes, but it's all right because I know."

 

Who really, really get on my tits are the people who, when making an announcement always strongly emphasise

"will be", or "there is" or suchlike.

[Canadian Paul 97]

Here's a question for all you Deathlist grammarians.

 

There is a suggestion box in a neighboring office that encourages people to submit their suggestions. At the bottom of the box is this statement:

 

"None of us, is as smart as all of us."

 

Would it be wrong of me to submit the suggestion that they fix that sentence to "None of us are as smart as all of us," as there are issues with collective nouns and such in that phrase?

 

And (to begin a sentence with "and" just for fun) don't even get me started on the comma placement...

[Tuber Mirum 125]

Here's a question for all you Deathlist grammarians.

 

There is a suggestion box in a neighboring office that encourages people to submit their suggestions. At the bottom of the box is this statement:

 

"None of us, is as smart as all of us."

 

Would it be wrong of me to submit the suggestion that they fix that sentence to "None of us are as smart as all of us," as there are issues with collective nouns and such in that phrase?

 

And (to begin a sentence with "and" just for fun) don't even get me started on the comma placement...

 

 

"None" is a contraction of "not (any) one".

 

"Not one of us are as smart as all of us" is complete nonsense because in spite of containing "us", "none of us" is indisputably singular.

 

The comma, is wrong of course.

 

Nuff said?

[Canadian Paul 97]

Here's a question for all you Deathlist grammarians.

 

There is a suggestion box in a neighboring office that encourages people to submit their suggestions. At the bottom of the box is this statement:

 

"None of us, is as smart as all of us."

 

Would it be wrong of me to submit the suggestion that they fix that sentence to "None of us are as smart as all of us," as there are issues with collective nouns and such in that phrase?

 

And (to begin a sentence with "and" just for fun) don't even get me started on the comma placement...

 

 

"None" is a contraction of "not (any) one".

 

"Not one of us are as smart as all of us" is complete nonsense because in spite of containing "us", "none of us" is indisputably singular.

 

Nuff said?

 

'nuff said indeed. It just sounds wrong to my ear when it's "none" instead of "not one."

 

I still stand by my opinion that the comma shouldn't be there.

 

This is why I only write Fantasy. Big, descriptive, fancy words are big, descriptive and fancy no matter how bad your grammar is.

[Josco 49]

Perhaps it should be:

 

All of us are smarter than one of us.

 

Then again, the idea of a suggestion box is just naff.

[Bald rick 9]

Perhaps it should be:

 

All of us are smarter than one of us.

 

Then again, the idea of a suggestion box is just naff.

 

As you've posted in the 'English language' thread, perhaps I should point out here that on following the link to your new site, I notice you've mis-spelled the word 'independant'.

[The Pooka 26]

Here's a question for all you Deathlist grammarians.

 

There is a suggestion box in a neighboring office that encourages people to submit their suggestions. At the bottom of the box is this statement:

 

"None of us, is as smart as all of us."

 

Would it be wrong of me to submit the suggestion that they fix that sentence to "None of us are as smart as all of us," as there are issues with collective nouns and such in that phrase?

 

And (to begin a sentence with "and" just for fun) don't even get me started on the comma placement...

 

 

"None" is a contraction of "not (any) one".

 

"Not one of us are as smart as all of us" is complete nonsense because in spite of containing "us", "none of us" is indisputably singular.

 

The comma, is wrong of course.

 

Nuff said?

 

Nuff said? Not on this subject. There being no formal grammatical rules in English, much is determined by style, convention and whether a line sounds 'right' or elegant. Balancing these elements ensures that it is difficult to argue for a fixed view of what is good and bad form. So......

 

1. Its fine to start a sentence with 'And...'. It places additional emphasis upon what you have said in the previous sentence.

2. The same applies to the use of: 'however', 'nevertheless' and 'notwithstanding'. Starting a sentence with each allows a greater emphasis on the fact that what follows may contradict what went before.

3. As notapotato correctly asserts, 'none' is technically singular. So that message should read 'Not one of us is....'. However, there are many examples of this rule being ignored for the sake of convention and style. 'Not one of are..' just sounds wrong, whereas 'none of us is....' doesn't. Sources going back over half a century allow either usage and so I would take issue with the singular use being 'completely wrong'..

4. Similarly, 'more than one person have died' sounds wrong, though it is correct in strict grammatical terms. Nevertheless, (there's that emphasis again) 'more than one person has died' sounds correct, though grammatically wrong. Stylistically, it is the latter form that we tend to use because it sounds 'right'.

5. notapotato is right about commas.

6. The person who placed that trite message should certainly be lashed until he or she drops. But that has nothing to do with their grammar.

 

PS It is perfectly acceptable to use 'their' in the context of 6 above as, while grammatically wrong, it avoids the clumsy repetition of 'his or her'.

[Josco 49]

Perhaps it should be:

 

All of us are smarter than one of us.

 

Then again, the idea of a suggestion box is just naff.

 

As you've posted in the 'English language' thread, perhaps I should point out here that on following the link to your new site, I notice you've mis-spelled the word 'independant'.

 

sh*t, how did that happen? Which incompetant fool designed it?

 

Oh it was me!

[Captain Oates 21]

I have spent a few enjoyable minutes re-reading this thread. Here are my comments on some of the most recent contributions:

 

Those who start a sentence with "however" must be promptly shot.

However often you complain, I continue to ignore you.

 

Since I'm confessing, my biggest grammatical sins are: -

• I use brackets all the time making sentences very long and fragmented.
  
• Using a succession of commas rather than starting new sentences.
  
• The occasional misuse of apostrophes, mostly involving possesive ones in the wrong place. I don't use them for plurals though, which I find more annoying.
  
• I also use "myself" instead of "I", but realise the problem and try and correct it when I notice it in the wrong context.
  
• Use of semicolons to yet again avoid ending a sentence.
  
• Finishing at least one sentence per post with...... I like to think it's for dramatic effect, but presumably (another of my pet words; oh no, brackets & semicolon combo) it looks lazy.
  

Brackets, commas, the semi-colon and the suspension point (ellipsis or dot-dot-dot) are all accepted forms of punctuation and hardly count as grammatical sins!

We all have our own stylistic preferences, however. (For CP's benefit only, I re-assembled that last sentence in reverse. )

 

1. Its fine to start a sentence with 'And...'. It places additional emphasis upon what you have said in the previous sentence.

2. The same applies to the use of: 'however', 'nevertheless' and 'notwithstanding'. Starting a sentence with each allows a greater emphasis on the fact that what follows may contradict what went before.

Fine, so far.

 

3. As notapotato correctly asserts, 'none' is technically singular. So that message should read 'Not one of us is....'. However, there are many examples of this rule being ignored for the sake of convention and style. 'Not one of are..' just sounds wrong, whereas 'none of us is....' doesn't. Sources going back over half a century allow either usage and so I would take issue with the singular use being 'completely wrong'..

I simply don't understand that bit!

 

4. Similarly, 'more than one person have died' sounds wrong, though it is correct in strict grammatical terms. Nevertheless, (there's that emphasis again) 'more than one person has died' sounds correct, though grammatically wrong. Stylistically, it is the latter form that we tend to use because it sounds 'right'.

It sounds wrong because it is wrong. 'More than one persons have died' sounds slightly better but I suspect that a grammarian would regard it as a compromise, having a similar absurdity level to 'more than one person has died.'

 

5. notapotato is right about commas.

Is the capitalisation in this sentence influenced by TLC's post, by any chance?

[The Pooka 26]

3. As notapotato correctly asserts, 'none' is technically singular. So that message should read 'Not one of us is....'. However, there are many examples of this rule being ignored for the sake of convention and style. 'Not one of are..' just sounds wrong, whereas 'none of us is....' doesn't. Sources going back over half a century allow either usage and so I would take issue with the singular use being 'completely wrong'..

I simply don't understand that bit!

 

The Pooka replies:

In essence I am saying that 'Not one of us is....' and 'Not one of us are....' (and also 'None of us is...' and 'None of us are....') are acceptable.

 

4. Similarly, 'more than one person have died' sounds wrong, though it is correct in strict grammatical terms. Nevertheless, (there's that emphasis again) 'more than one person has died' sounds correct, though grammatically wrong. Stylistically, it is the latter form that we tend to use because it sounds 'right'.

It sounds wrong because it is wrong. 'More than one persons have died' sounds slightly better but I suspect that a grammarian would regard it as a compromise, having a similar absurdity level to 'more than one person has died.'

 

The Pooka replies:

'More than one' has to be plural. That is clear. Therefore, 'more than one person have died' is grammatically correct but sounds wrong. This is because the word 'one' exerts a 'pull' on the verb that is powerful enough for us to overlook the fact that 'more than one' (ie two or more) is what we are talking about.

 

Your suggestion of 'More than one persons' is wrong. You don't say 'one persons'; you say 'one person'. Therefore, you use 'more than one person'.

 

5. notapotato is right about commas.

Is the capitalisation in this sentence influenced by TLC's post, by any chance?

No, I was just 'dissing' Notapotato.

 

I disagree, Captain. Comments are in green in the text above.

 

I love this thread. Pedants the world over will sniff the air and howl like wolves.

[The Pooka 26]

The thing that grates on me more than anything is when people say "haitch" .... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I know what you mean, but my pet-hate is when people use double negatives. Do they not realise that they cancel out any point that they were trying to make? Grrrrr.

 

I'm warming to this. I stress that I am not posting out of pedantry but at frustration with the pedantry of others.

 

It is true to say that a double negative is a positive in mathematics. However, maths ain't grammar. There is a long literary history of using double negatives to emphasise the negative message. The Greeks did it, Chaucer did it, Shakespeare did it. So do many other languages. So when you hear that chav using the double negative acknowledge that he's just celebrating his literary heritage.

 

My pet hate is being corrected by pedants when I say, for example, 'Please consider my friend and me...' and they amend it to ' ...consider my friend and I..'.

[Captain Oates 21]

My pet hate is being corrected by pedants when I say, for example, 'Please consider my friend and me...' and they amend it to ' ...consider my friend and I..'.

Those pedants would be wrong, as I'm sure you would know!

 

3. As notapotato correctly asserts, 'none' is technically singular. So that message should read 'Not one of us is....'. However, there are many examples of this rule being ignored for the sake of convention and style. 'Not one of are..' just sounds wrong, whereas 'none of us is....' doesn't. Sources going back over half a century allow either usage and so I would take issue with the singular use being 'completely wrong'.

I simply don't understand that bit!

 

The Pooka replies:

In essence I am saying that 'Not one of us is....' and 'Not one of us are....' (and also 'None of us is...' and 'None of us are....') are acceptable.

Thank you for the explanation.

 

'Not one of us are' and 'none of us are....' are both totally absurd.

 

4. Similarly, 'more than one person have died' sounds wrong, though it is correct in strict grammatical terms. Nevertheless, (there's that emphasis again) 'more than one person has died' sounds correct, though grammatically wrong. Stylistically, it is the latter form that we tend to use because it sounds 'right'.

It sounds wrong because it is wrong. 'More than one persons have died' sounds slightly better but I suspect that a grammarian would regard it as a compromise, having a similar absurdity level to 'more than one person has died.'

 

The Pooka replies:

'More than one' has to be plural. That is clear. Therefore, 'more than one person have died' is grammatically correct but sounds wrong. This is because the word 'one' exerts a 'pull' on the verb that is powerful enough for us to overlook the fact that 'more than one' (ie two or more) is what we are talking about.

 

Your suggestion of 'More than one persons' is wrong. You don't say 'one persons'; you say 'one person'. Therefore, you use 'more than one person'.

'One person' is a red herring!

 

By your own empirical logic, 'more than one' makes 'person' plural, ie 'persons.' In order for the verb to match, the verb must also be in the plural form. According to what the sentence is telling us, several persons have died. I make no comment on the correctness of any of this but only on the various levels of absurdity inherent in the language we use and I suggest that the 'intended meaning' is perhaps where we could begin to discover the best way to express that meaning.

 

 

As regards probable correctness, may I offer the following?

 

More [than one person{= adjectival phrase}] have died.

and similarly:

 

None [of us {= adjectival phrase}] is ready.

I'm sure that some erudite DL grammarian will correct my half-remembered, half-guessed terminology.

 

The Pooka, I'm delighted that you're enjoying this thread. It is usually those who find this sort of topic to be 'annoying nit-picking' who are least likely to understand why it is worth discussing.

 

PS - Proper 'modern' use of "begs the question" is another knotty topic for argument.