The EU Referendum Hokey Cokey

[paddyfool 379]

April next year might be a bit late, though.

[Lord Fellatio Nelson 6,226]

42 minutes ago, paddyfool said:

April next year might be a bit late, though.

Why.

[paddyfool 379]

Because then either we'll have entirely ripped up our alliance with our neighbours in Europe by exiting with no deal, or we'll be tied into some new deal and plan. 

[runebomme 377]

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,325]

There is a countdown timer here:

 

https://howmanydaystill.com/its/brexit-6

 

The Guardian tries to predict the likelihood of different outcomes:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/10/brexit-countdown-five-possible-outcomes-200-days-to-go

 

 

Also, the Financial Times lists what has been done and what tasks remain:

 

https://ig.ft.com/brexit-countdown/

 

Jaguar boss claims they might be screwed:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/11/brexit-tens-of-thousands-of-jobs-at-risk-jaguar-land-rover-boss-tells-pm

 

More on the stockpiling of medicine:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/06/government-talks-drug-companies-medicines-stockpiling-brexit

 

More importantly, Cadbury is stockpiling chocolate ingredients:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/11/cadbury-hard-brexit-mondelez-uk-prices

 

 

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,325]

For balance/LFN, a pro-Brexit piece on the elites versus the voice of the people:

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/the-people-vs-brexit-a-very-elite-insurgency/amp/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_content=010918_Weekly_Highlights_35_NONSUBS&utm_campaign=Weekly_Highlights&__twitter_impression=true

 

[paddyfool 379]

The classic problem with Brexit's appeal to many there - it's about an emotional appeal to go to war with a "malevolent, spiteful" foreign bogeyman. Nevermind that the problems blamed on the EU are generally homegrown in origin (austerity, anyone?), this paranoid fantasy dominates the narrative from the hard brexiteers.

[runebomme 377]

[Lord Fellatio Nelson 6,226]

6 hours ago, paddyfool said:

The classic problem with Brexit's appeal to many there - it's about an emotional appeal to go to war with a "malevolent, spiteful" foreign bogeyman. Nevermind that the problems blamed on the EU are generally homegrown in origin (austerity, anyone?), this paranoid fantasy dominates the narrative from the hard brexiteers.

That's a standard argument that is bollocks. That is as a vacuous an argument as suggesting that people voted to remain so that they would still have cheap holidays in Spain every year and continue to stick the EU flag on their number plates. Nobody blames the home issues on the EU, although to be fair, people like me were royally fucked off by EU directives telling me how many fucking hrs a week i was allowed to work. That is the fundamental issue to those that voted to leave, self determination. What is the point of a Government that can be usurped by an administration that we have not even voted for? The Catalan people, the Scottish, hey even the Gibraltarians have been allowed to vote on their futures without hindrance from outside, our nation, it would seem, were only given that right reluctantly based on the belief that we would tow the line. Well that fucked it all up! I do not sit comfortably watching Catalans being treated like criminals for wanting to leave the Spanish Union and i would defend the Scottish to the hilt if they wanted to go because it is a democratic right to choose.Whether that is for the best or not is irrelevant. Democracy should reign, unless you are British, obviously.

[charon 4,943]

 

 

You can keep going to The Well if you fail to achieve a vote to leave anything. You cannot if the Leave vote wins, that's the point of no return.

 

Whining screaming no righter 'liberal/hippies' bleating about it will warm me now that Winter is Coming

 

 

If not , the UK will fall apart as infighting amongst the parties/supporters intensifies.

 

Win/Win for me, although I'd prefer a hard Brexit and watch comfortably as the gravy train derails and Europe falls apart.

 

Scotchland is a collection of islands with a shared border with the Shire. Never thought of myself as European, they're hundreds of miles away.

 

 

Let it crash and burn, baybee

[paddyfool 379]

@Lord Nelson,

The catalan issue is entirely the fault of the Spanish gvt. Nothing to do with the EU, who have no power to intervene in this issue; if they did, it would contravene some of the many safeguards in place for national sovereignty within the EU.

 

And the problem with us leaving isn't really to do with the EU itself, but instead because our gvt still haven't presented a workable plan for leaving, and time is ticking closer. Why we went into the referendum, never mind triggered article 50, without making a detailed, thoroughly worked out and triple-checked plan for leaving first should be the question. But no, our gvt decided to race in and bodge things, for fear of seeming weak and hesitant. Look how strong they look now ;-)

 

Also, I'd be careful of that "nobody" claim. I've heard many different people explain many different reasons that they had for voting Leave, from the fear that sovereignty was threatened, to wanting fewer immigrants, to wanting to harm the UK.  And the EU has been blamed for a ton of issues that it wasn't responsible for; where the issue in question is one that some EU countries have but others really don't, it's worth asking how much the issue is really the fault of the local gvt. Minor case in point: it's much easier to get an exemption to the 48 hour week rules in some EU countries than others. Quite possibly our own gvt should have been more flexible in how they put this rule in place. A bigger claim can be made for how the EU gets the blame for globslisation and privatisation, when our own country has gone much further in this regard than most EU countries.

 

The long and the short of it is that the decisions which have fundamentally damaged the UK were made in Westminster.

[Lord Fellatio Nelson 6,226]

44 minutes ago, paddyfool said:

@Lord Nelson,

The catalan issue is entirely the fault of the Spanish gvt. Nothing to do with the EU, who have no power to intervene in this issue; if they did, it would contravene some of the many safeguards in place for national sovereignty within the EU.

 

And the problem with us leaving isn't really to do with the EU itself, but instead because our gvt still haven't presented a workable plan for leaving, and time is ticking closer. Why we went into the referendum, never mind triggered article 50, without making a detailed, thoroughly worked out and triple-checked plan for leaving first should be the question. But no, our gvt decided to race in and bodge things, for fear of seeming weak and hesitant. Look how strong they look now ;-)

 

Also, I'd be careful of that "nobody" claim. I've heard many different people explain many different reasons that they had for voting Leave, from the fear that sovereignty was threatened, to wanting fewer immigrants, to wanting to harm the UK.  And the EU has been blamed for a ton of issues that it wasn't responsible for; where the issue in question is one that some EU countries have but others really don't, it's worth asking how much the issue is really the fault of the local gvt. Minor case in point: it's much easier to get an exemption to the 48 hour week rules in some EU countries than others. Quite possibly our own gvt should have been more flexible in how they put this rule in place. A bigger claim can be made for how the EU gets the blame for globslisation and privatisation, when our own country has gone much further in this regard than most EU countries.

 

The long and the short of it is that the decisions which have fundamentally damaged the UK were made in Westminster.

You didn't really read my reply did you.

The example of the Catalan election was about self determination, nothing more nothing less. The EU could not have intervened and I never even alluded that they could.

I agree with the Government fucking things up. I would also suggest that the rampant remainers, determined to keep us within the union, no matter what, are equally as culpable for the mess by demanding a 'deal' when those that voted to leave did so on the basis that leave actually meant leave.

You may well have heard many different reasons for wanting to leave and you can bet your life that 99% of those reasons will all dovetail into one primary desire. The right to have complete control over our laws, our taxes our everything and, yes, our immigration system.

The EU directive? Oh, I agree, it is applied as and when to suit across the EU but it is an EU law. What you are basically saying is that the UK is to blame for actually applying the law, we should have just done what we liked. Lets all do that about everything then.

Globalisation and privatisation are irrelevant to the core issue, self determination. Even as a stand alone state we will be part of a Globalised economy and structure, we always have been, it is part and parcel of why we are a relatively big fish in the pond of commerce. Privatisation?  I fail to see what that has to do with anything. I would like to see the renationalisation of our rail networks. Quite what the EU would have to do with that......

We have not been 'fundamentally damaged' we are still here, nobody died and, as you yourself stated, austerity has fuck all to do with the EU so our intrinsic issues have no bearing on the EU, whether we are in or out.

We are brilliant a talking the country down, post referendum, according to the scaremongers, we were meant to have an emergency budget, didn't happen. The Banks were all going to flee, didn't happen. All EU citizens were going to scarper back home, didn't happen.

The Government are shit, a remainer is our Prime Minister, RIP, but we will all survive and get on with things.

Maybe if people stopped fucking marching and waving pointless fucking placards demanding we have another bastard vote we could just get on with it and fucking leave!!!

[Lord Fellatio Nelson 6,226]

On another subject.

I have mostly been enjoying the 'Class War' FB page getting shat on from all directions by disgruntled and disgusted Joe Public.

That's Anarchists for you, they hate the rich but are happy to have a free page on a social media platform owned by one of the Worlds richest men.

Complete c***s.

[msc 18,543]

Ah, the chaps newish round here, he's yet to learn yer old enough to remember the Siege of Mafeking!

[charon 4,943]

Fuck Mafeking, worst party I went to when I was a boy was in a flat named after the the place.

 

 

Paddy fool.

 

Lot of "us" and "we" in that pish, reconsider and post again please ya English cunt

[msc 18,543]

^ Mafeking St in Glasgow leads to charon's favourite place in Glasgow, naturally.*

 

*It's in Govan for the 1 person who didn't twig...

[charon 4,943]

Nope.

 

 

Campbeltown. Mafeking Square.

 

 

Think my dad lived there in the 40's afore he got hitched.

 

Its a Joy that Kintyre/Argyll wasn't a part of Scotland virtually until Bannockburn.

 

Bring back the Kingdom of the Isles, the good bits of Ireland, the Isles, Argyll, isle of Man and fuck the rest

[Sir Creep 7,071]

14 hours ago, msc said:

^ Mafeking St in Glasgow leads to charon's favourite place in Glasgow, naturally.*

 

*It's in Govan for the 1 person who didn't twig...

You may find it ironic that I had to look up 'twig' as a verb.  

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,325]

Theresa safe "for now":

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-13/theresa-may-safe-from-pro-brexit-tories-for-now/10239028

 

[the_engineer 1,415]

Project fear 3:housing prices will fall! Remember they done the same with the scottish independence vote too. Must be the globalist go to threat. Brexit will benefit the working class that's why so many working class voted for it! The estabishment don't like brexit,corbyn or trump that should tell everyone everything they need to know.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2756283/Scottish-independence-referendum-House-prices-fall-30-000.html

 

https://news.sky.com/story/mark-carney-no-deal-brexit-could-see-house-prices-crash-by-a-third-11496950

[the_engineer 1,415]

On 12/09/2018 at 05:59, paddyfool said:

The classic problem with Brexit's appeal to many there - it's about an emotional appeal to go to war with a "malevolent, spiteful" foreign bogeyman. Nevermind that the problems blamed on the EU are generally homegrown in origin (austerity, anyone?), this paranoid fantasy dominates the narrative from the hard brexiteers.

 

Austerity took place whilst we were in the EU as did workfare ,zero hour contracts and foodbanks. EU imposed horrific austerity on Greece, it stole money out of people's bank accounts in cyprus. The people that make these decisions Can't be voted out they're unelected.However if a political party in the UK were doing this then they could be ( see corbyns rise for proof).The vindictive nature of the EU to punish the UK for democraticly deciding to leave is disturbing. Same as they decided to punish the catalans for voting for independence by arresting their elected politicians and smashing pensioners over the head with batons as they went to vote.

[Davey Jones' Locker 1,325]

Other implications: Less notification of falling space debris:

 

https://m.dw.com/en/brexit-uk-ramps-up-provision-for-no-deal-sledgehammer/a-45480513

 

 

[paddyfool 379]

8 hours ago, the_engineer said:

 

Austerity took place whilst we were in the EU as did workfare ,zero hour contracts and foodbanks. EU imposed horrific austerity on Greece, it stole money out of people's bank accounts in cyprus. The people that make these decisions Can't be voted out they're unelected.However if a political party in the UK were doing this then they could be ( see corbyns rise for proof).The vindictive nature of the EU to punish the UK for democraticly deciding to leave is disturbing. Same as they decided to punish the catalans for voting for independence by arresting their elected politicians and smashing pensioners over the head with batons as they went to vote.

 

Austerity in Greece was imposed by the Eurozone, which the UK was never in. Austerity in the UK was imposed by the British gvt. And harsh treatment of the Catalans was imposed by the Spanish gvt.

 

And the EU really isn't being vindictive about the UK leaving. We've been offered effectively the same deals as a range of other non-EU states, with  Norway's and Canada's deals being on the table as a general basis, for instance, although the Canadian deal would be complicated by the previous good friday commitment to an open border in Ireland. We'd be deluding ourselves if we thought we'd be getting anything better; the EU's own rules, set up to protect its member nations, don't allow it. So with the chequers fudge of a deal looking increasingly unworkable from both sides, what's it to be? No deal, a Canada-style deal, EEA membership or remaining in?

 

[Grim Up North 3,771]

I voted to leave (although I was disappointed by the debate so never got a chance to form an opinion on a lot of things I would have liked more information on) I just felt that there were too many levels of governance and layer upon layer of politicians etc.

 

However I didn't anticipate the absolute cluster fuck of an embarrassment that both sides would make by trying to 'win' the exit and foolishly expected us to be about to leave now in an orderly fashion with the major terms of the agreement in place.

 

The company I work for imports goods from outside EU and then exports to Europe - it is now starting to look like there may be jobs at risk that should never have been at risk had things been sorted out in a sensible fashion.

 

Honestly I don't hold my vote responsible for that - we should be able to vote for a change and expect it to be handled in a reasonable way by the people who are elected to look after the people's interests (on both sides).

[paddyfool 379]

34 minutes ago, Grim Up North said:

I voted to leave (although I was disappointed by the debate so never got a chance to form an opinion on a lot of things I would have liked more information on) I just felt that there were too many levels of governance and layer upon layer of politicians etc.

 

However I didn't anticipate the absolute cluster fuck of an embarrassment that both sides would make by trying to 'win' the exit and foolishly expected us to be about to leave now in an orderly fashion with the major terms of the agreement in place.

 

The company I work for imports goods from outside EU and then exports to Europe - it is now starting to look like there may be jobs at risk that should never have been at risk had things been sorted out in a sensible fashion.

 

Honestly I don't hold my vote responsible for that - we should be able to vote for a change and expect it to be handled in a reasonable way by the people who are elected to look after the people's interests (on both sides).

 

None of us were possessed of a crystal ball, and blame-throwing is generally unbelpful. I can't imagine anyone was voting for the specific mess we've landed ourselves into. 

 

And I was also disappointed by the debate. Still am, on the whole, meaning no ill of any specific debater.

 

Looking back, though, how did you envision it turning out? What would you have liked to have seen done differently, post-referendum, with the benefit of hindsight?