The World of the Snowflake

[philheybrookbay 439]

1 hour ago, msc said:

 

Drake did all of his work on the orders of Elizabeth I, and I am yet to see suggestions we change anything named after her. Or Victoria.

 

Curious to see their list includes Sir Robert Peel, possibly because they are mistaking him for another member of his own family, but also maybe because of his anti-Catholic views. Despite those views, he wrote the bill on emancipation in the 1820s and sacrificed his own top level career to end the Corn Laws. So are we going to hate on a chap in 2020 for his personal views when he was still directly responsible for the two of the biggest moves in favour of poor Irish and British Catholics in his life? (Lets not forget the man also banned sending kids down mines, and 99% of the capital offences from the times when you could be hung for stealing an apple...) Gladstone also based on his family and the reason he was put in parliament in the first place as a 20 year old was to oppose abolition - but we don't remember him solely for that, do we? We remember him because he grow out of those views, denounced them, and went onto champion the rights of the individual throughout the world. Both were heavy on basic civil rights long before that became a big thing.

 

I do have sympathy for the BLM cause, and get the starting point for some of these discussions (as I said before, any statue put up to a known racist in the 1990s in a public place is just shit stirring) but if everyone is getting judged to the standards of the two men above in 2020 as a basic example, none of us are escaping spotless. There's a strong degree of baby with the bathwater here, led on by the Scrappy Doos in society who probably couldn't name you a single African American civil rights leader. So either we bulldoze all of the UK, or we face up to history and context. But then I am opposed to facelift proposals that do nothing to make things better bar make a few guilty middle class consciences feel better.

Excellent piece, well explained.

 

What is very much more astounding is that right on the end of Plymouth Hoe slightly hidden is red marble monument about the Boar War which seems to have avoided all publicity so far. In terms of size and its overtones is much more questionable compared so to Drake. 

[harrymcnallysblueandwhitearmy 1,689]

42 minutes ago, philheybrookbay said:

Excellent piece, well explained.

 

What is very much more astounding is that right on the end of Plymouth Hoe slightly hidden is red marble monument about the Boar War which seems to have avoided all publicity so far. In terms of size and its overtones is much more questionable compared so to Drake. 

"Yes they were dreadful times, old chap, but one must never forget the sacrifices we made"

[the_engineer 1,415]

 

[CaptainChorizo 1,983]

If people are outraged to hear what protestors did to a Christopher Columbus statue,they should read about what Columbus did to actual human beings.

[Toast 16,141]

Surely we need to acknowledge that pretty much everybody was racist back in the day.   People didn't know any better. 

It's futile judging historic people by today's standards.

 

And prejudice of various kinds exists in all social groups.

[torbrexbones 717]

1 hour ago, Toast said:

And prejudice of various kinds exists in all social groups.

It is the basis of most forms of humour.

[TQR 14,398]

3 hours ago, Toast said:

Surely we need to acknowledge that pretty much everybody was racist back in the day.   People didn't know any better. 

It's futile judging historic people by today's standards.

 

And prejudice of various kinds exists in all social groups.

It’s also just as important to acknowledge the abhorrence of such behaviour, regardless of when it was. Racism was more commonplace but it was never okay. Our recognition of past prejudice and discrimination should be used as the basis of eradicating any that still exists today.

[Toast 16,141]

1 hour ago, The Quim Reaper said:

It’s also just as important to acknowledge the abhorrence of such behaviour, regardless of when it was. Racism was more commonplace but it was never okay. Our recognition of past prejudice and discrimination should be used as the basis of eradicating any that still exists today.

 

We know, and as someone who has never, ever been racist I am tired of being beaten over the head with this.

We know it's not okay, okay? 

Admittedly my rage is being stoked by an insufferable woman who unfortunately lives near me and posts all kinds of infuriating shit on FB. Don't get me started as I don't want to run any risk of identifying her by quoting any of her extensive list of imagined slights. 

[Miracle Aligner 249]

15 minutes ago, Toast said:

 

We know, and as someone who has never, ever been racist I am tired of being beaten over the head with this.

 We know it's not okay, okay? 

Admittedly my rage is being stoked by an insufferable woman who unfortunately lives near me and posts all kinds of infuriating shit on FB. Don't get me started as I don't want to run any risk of identifying her by quoting any of her extensive list of imagined slights. 

 

Oh go on... you know you want too..... 

[Toast 16,141]

25 minutes ago, Miracle Aligner said:

 

Oh go on... you know you want too..... 

 

I won't, but I'll give an example of the sort of thing she calls out as racist.

 

I went to a shop earlier, and as I was making my way there, a white woman coming towards me moved aside to make more space between us as we passed.  We exchanged smiles.  A black man was following a few yards behind her.  I smiled at him, he blanked me.  No big deal, he was probably deep in thought and didn't even notice me.

 

If this had happened to madam, with a white person failing to acknowledge her, she'd be all over it calling it "the sort of racist attitude my children and I have to endure every day".

[TQR 14,398]

51 minutes ago, Toast said:

 

We know, and as someone who has never, ever been racist I am tired of being beaten over the head with this.

We know it's not okay, okay? 

Admittedly my rage is being stoked by an insufferable woman who unfortunately lives near me and posts all kinds of infuriating shit on FB. Don't get me started as I don't want to run any risk of identifying her by quoting any of her extensive list of imagined slights. 

I don’t understand why you’re finding it so infuriating. Nobody is accusing you of being racist. But it really isn’t the time to make excuses for these people in the past. You might be factually correct, but right now people are hurting. The discussion needs to be how to make society better, to listen to the other point of view and recognise if we’re going wrong somewhere. All of us, that is, from all backgrounds. If the idea of that is infuriating, that’s quite troubling.
 

But I tell you what I find infuriating, and please recognise that none of this is directed at you or any one person in particular, I find it infuriating that there’s actually debate about ending racism, whether it be big events like a racist police killing or things more insidious than that. I’m furious that there are activists, whether they be far-left or far-right, causing civil unrest. I’m furious that, in 2020, we are STILL not nearly where we need to be re: any form of minority, race or otherwise, still feeling ostracised, not wanted, ignored (I’m white but I have faced it in the past). I’m furious at how much is going on, whether it be token gestures of censorship from streaming services or people damaging public property, that is undermining what we need to do to combat racism and other discrimination. I’m furious that some people (again, not directed at any one person in particular) still bury their heads in the sand, make excuses for those exhibiting racist behaviour, or are not prepared to listen to the point of view of the affected. NO excuses for anyone. We ALL need to work together to make sure any discrimination (note, not just racism) is not rooted deeply in society. That does not mean any one person is doing wrong, it means that everyone should make an effort to recognise and rectify something that is wrong.

 

So yeah, I suppose people from all sides can be infuriating 

[Toast 16,141]

1 hour ago, The Quim Reaper said:

I don’t understand why you’re finding it so infuriating. Nobody is accusing you of being racist.

 

Yes, I'm sorry to say that certain people do.  They attribute everything to racism.  They twist everything to fit their agenda.

 

1 hour ago, The Quim Reaper said:

 I’m furious at how much is going on, whether it be token gestures of censorship from streaming services or people damaging public property, that is undermining what we need to do to combat racism and other discrimination.

 

This, a thousand times. 

[TQR 14,398]

34 minutes ago, Toast said:

Yes, I'm sorry to say that certain people do. They attribute everything to racism. They twist everything to fit their agenda.

It’s a serious accusation, racism, and not one to be taken lightly. The thing that needs realising more than anything else is that racism is not just slurs, foul manners and violence. It’s the little, surreptitious things like unexplained exclusion, behaving differently with other races as a result of preconceptions that you may not even be conscious of.

 

I listened to Clara Amfo on Radio 1 a week or two ago, she spoke about how attacks like the one on George Floyd affect her mental health, they bring up a lot of feelings about how just the little things she and other black people may still face day-to-day. It really stops you in your tracks when you listen to their point of view, and yet so many people are so blissfully unaware that it goes on. 
 

The main point is, we all need to think a bit more.

[Toast 16,141]

18 minutes ago, The Quim Reaper said:

It’s a serious accusation, racism, and not one to be taken lightly. The thing that needs realising more than anything else is that racism is not just slurs, foul manners and violence. It’s the little, surreptitious things like unexplained exclusion, behaving differently with other races as a result of preconceptions that you may not even be conscious of.

 

I listened to Clara Amfo on Radio 1 a week or two ago, she spoke about how attacks like the one on George Floyd affect her mental health, they bring up a lot of feelings and how just the little things she and other black people may still face day-to-day. It really stops you in your tracks when you listen to their point of view, and yet so many people are so blissfully unaware that it goes on. 
 

The main point is, we all need to think a bit more.

 

Little things - exactly.  I am sick of being lectured to and patronised about "not even realising how I am being racist".  I'm pretty sure that I don't behave any differently towards people of other races.   We are all - ALL - frequently the victims of thoughtlessness, tactless remarks, inadvertent rudeness.  Most of the time people don't mean to hurt or offend.  And as long as that's the case, it's wise not to take it personally.   We aren't as important to others as we think we are.

 

[TQR 14,398]

34 minutes ago, Toast said:

 

Little things - exactly.  I am sick of being lectured to and patronised about "not even realising how I am being racist".  I'm pretty sure that I don't behave any differently towards people of other races.   We are all - ALL - frequently the victims of thoughtlessness, tactless remarks, inadvertent rudeness.  Most of the time people don't mean to hurt or offend.  And as long as that's the case, it's wise not to take it personally.   We aren't as important to others as we think we are.

 

True, but it’s easier said than done.
 

In my initial post you appeared to take that personally when that was not the intention. (If you didn’t, good, it just seemed to me like you did)
 

And you mention being sick of being patronised; “you don’t realise you’re being racist” is a really dickish way of putting it, but patronising you is clearly not her objective, even if it is what she inadvertently achieved. You took that personally too. See how easily done it is? And if you’re sick of things like this, just imagine how sick the victims of societal discrimination are.
 

I couldn’t agree more that we’re all victims of thoughtlessness and inadvertent rudeness. But, much like with unlawful and outrageous police killings, look at who it happens to more. That’s why movements like Black Lives Matter have to exist.

 

I’m very sorry if any of this comes across as shitty, that’s not my intention, but I’m exhausted and I’ve seen so many examples of troubling ignorance (and I’m not including you in that) that the whole issue really is riling me something chronic. We all need more sympathy for the issue. I’m afraid I think generalisation of rudeness can wait until we’ve really shown to improve things. I’ll stop talking now 

[Toast 16,141]

10 minutes ago, The Quim Reaper said:

In my initial post you appeared to take that personally when that was not the intention. (If you didn’t, good, it just seemed to me like you did)

 

No, not at all.  I should perhaps have made it clear that I wasn't referring to anyone here. 

 

It's more a general thing, and when people think it's acceptable to issue blanket instructions to their community on FB etc, eg  don't encourage your children to be friends with my children because you think it's cool to have black friends -

- let's just say I don't think it's a constructive attitude.  God help those kids.

I shan't say any more on the subject, it's too depressing.

[TQR 14,398]

4 minutes ago, Toast said:

 

No, not at all.  I should perhaps have made it clear that I wasn't referring to anyone here. 

 

It's more a general thing, and when people think it's acceptable to issue blanket instructions to their community on FB etc, eg  don't encourage your children to be friends with my children because you think it's cool to have black friends -

- let's just say I don't think it's a constructive attitude.  God help those kids.

I shan't say any more on the subject, it's too depressing.

 

Yeah. The only blanket instruction that applies to everyone is 'think', aside of course from 'don't be fucking racist'. Your example is a good one of somebody with possibly the right intention, but going about it in entirely the wrong way.

 

It's an uncomfortable subject, but it's not supposed to be comfortable, and I feel like healthy discussions such as this one is progress.

[Banana 859]

I don’t believe at all that people have agendas. What I do believe is that people misrepresent any sort of criticism of any group of people (race, sex, gender, wealth, class, ability, etc.) as being -ist or -phobic. Having an differing opinion doesn’t make you -ist/-phobic, at most it makes you ignorant and that’s the problem most these people have. Labelling someone as “problematic” (god I fucking hate that term) is literally just the simplest way of telling someone they “may” be ignorant without actually knowing much themselves. 

[the_engineer 1,415]

Wow I agree with banana .

 

 

Racism has become so cheapened that anything can be racist nowadays. Fact is if a white person disagrees or debates a person of colour, and doesn't immediately agree with them it's because they're racist that's the way some far left loons see it. 

 

Laurence fox on QT for example. A woman of colour judges him by skin colour and basically says you're a white privileged man so that means his opinion = nothing. He's called racist for defending himself and some acting union sets the dogs on him on twitter. They apologised a few weeks after.

 

Van Jones on CNN saying all white people Even the most well-intentioned white person has a virus in his or her brain. It's a racist fucking statement and he's still in a job. Imagine if a white guy said all blacks have a hate white people virus would you imagine he would still be in a job?  Doesn't look like privilege to me, it looks like whites can be racially abused and the media are complicit in it's allowance and silence . 

 

 

 

[runebomme 377]

Daniel Radcliffe had no business attacking Jk Rowling I think  he has well demonstrated what he is about

[Banana 859]

I'm pretty liberal on most things, but I don't agree with how most other liberals go about making a change and labeling everything problematic. It's not a solution it's just sweeping everything under the rug and not actually progressing anything. People want to believe what they believe is right, but they aren't really open on hearing opposing views is a respectful and mature manner. This goes both ways though.

 

27 minutes ago, the_engineer said:

Van Jones on CNN saying all white people Even the most well-intentioned white person has a virus in his or her brain. It's a racist fucking statement and he's still in a job. Imagine if a white guy said all blacks have a hate white people virus would you imagine he would still be in a job?  Doesn't look like privilege to me, it looks like whites can be racially abused and the media are complicit in it's allowance and silence . 

 

 

I mean with context in the clip, he mentions specifically a "liberal Hillary Clinton supporter" which is an oxymoroon. So he's either referring to himself as well or not aware enough of politics to be speaking about them on CNN or both.

[Toast 16,141]

A couple of things raised in this article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-53000622

 

"all the times I've been asked, "Where are you from?" (England)

"No where are you from, from?" (Oh you mean why do I have this colour skin?)"

 

Let's say I'm chatting to someone I've just met.  If I ask "Where are you from?" I mean just that.  This isn't a question reserved for people of a different race.  I expect to get an answer like Birmingham, Swindon etc.  A reply like "England" is acceptable if we're not in the UK at the time, but not otherwise helpful.

 

If we are really asking where the person's ancestors originated, why is it so unacceptable to be interested?  Are we not allowed to ask?  Someone asked me the other day if my parents came from the place where I now live.   I was quite happy to discuss my ancestry.

 

"all the times people think it's okay to touch my curly hair (I'm not a pet)."

 

Agreed, this is pretty intrusive unless you know the person well.  But plenty of white people have curly hair too, and it's the same for them.  It's a natural curiosity about the texture of hair different from your own, and it can work both ways.   I just don't see this as a racist thing.

 

It's all just people to me, and I treat everybody the same.  It seems wrong to me to treat people differently because of their race.  "I can't ask her that because she's black" kind of thing.

[the_engineer 1,415]

I've asked were people are from before and they seem happy to talk about it rather than be offended. 

 

Seems it's the media pushing this people are offended you asking them where are they from narrative.

 

This John Cleese video could of been filmed last week.

 

[Miracle Aligner 249]

4 hours ago, Toast said:

A couple of things raised in this article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-53000622

 

"all the times I've been asked, "Where are you from?" (England)

"No where are you from, from?" (Oh you mean why do I have this colour skin?)"

 

Let's say I'm chatting to someone I've just met.  If I ask "Where are you from?" I mean just that.  This isn't a question reserved for people of a different race.  I expect to get an answer like Birmingham, Swindon etc.  A reply like "England" is acceptable if we're not in the UK at the time, but not otherwise helpful.

  

If we are really asking where the person's ancestors originated, why is it so unacceptable to be interested?  Are we not allowed to ask?  Someone asked me the other day if my parents came from the place where I now live.   I was quite happy to discuss my ancestry.

  

"all the times people think it's okay to touch my curly hair (I'm not a pet)."

 

Agreed, this is pretty intrusive unless you know the person well.  But some white people have curly hair too, and it's the same for them.  It's a natural curiosity about the texture of hair different from your own, and it can work both ways.   I just don't see this as a racist thing.

  

It's all just people to me, and I treat everybody the same.  It seems wrong to me to treat people differently because of their race.  "I can't ask her that because she's black" kind of thing.

 

They chose the wrong way of phrasing the actually problem....

 

It's 'where are you from' 'town both parties live in' 'no where are you really from' 'you mean where are my parents from?'

 

I've heard that one a million times aimed at friends/acquaintances. I'm not sure why they've chosen England as the answer when in reality it's normally the local town.

 

This is something that should be stamped out.

[Captain of Industry 2]

On 13/06/2020 at 13:37, Toast said:

And I thought I'd finally found a safe space