The Ukraine Crisis

[maryportfuncity 10,017]

14 hours ago, Ulitzer95 said:

Adam Holloway, a current British Conservative MP is there as well.

He has a death wish. Went to Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan during all of those conflicts against Foreign Office advice.

 

 

So, not all bad news, then!

[maryportfuncity 10,017]

Oh aye and...The Daily Mash have managed a moment of appropriate mirth here

 

DO you feel your children should be aware of the war in Ukraine? But can you also not be arsed to explain it responsibly? Be sure to cover all these bases.

Explain the effects of a nuclear holocaust

Breezily inform your kids they’ll be vaporised instantly – along with mummy, daddy, all their toys and favourite pet. When they start crying...

 

Link to the rest: https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/the-crap-parents-guide-to-scaring-your-kids-shitless-by-explaining-ukraine-20220303218017

[Ulitzer95 11,043]

2 minutes ago, maryportfuncity said:

 

 

So, not all bad news, then!

Holloway is a first class MP!

Don't be so shallow to judge everything by political lines. There are good guys in all political parties in the Commons.

[maryportfuncity 10,017]

Just now, Ulitzer95 said:

Holloway is a first class MP!

Don't be so shallow to judge everything by political lines. There are good guys in all political parties in the Commons.

 

 

If there are good guys (I'm assuming that's both genders btw) in the Commons I'm assuming most of them turn up to clean the place 

[CastAway 475]

 

Highly experienced General Major in the Russian Armed Forces killed in Ukraine. Not only is this is a major loss for the Russian Army, you have to imagine things become just a little more chaotic every time someone with actual experience in a war dies on the front. 

 

[CastAway 475]

 

 

 

People fleeing Russia amidst reports that Putin's upcoming speech (should be given within the next few hours) will include a declaration of martial law in the country. Lawmakers in-country drafting a law that forces people arrested for protesting the invasion in Russia to be conscripted into the army to fight in Ukraine in a sick twist of things. 

[RoverAndOut 3,471]

4 hours ago, YoungWillz said:

On your first response - I think Russia has been foolish here. They could have gone round or ignored the Russian heavy areas of Ukraine and concentrated their fire on other areas more supportive of Zelenskyy.

 

It depends what his objectives are. Clearly he genuinely thought he was going to march into Ukraine, the South and East were going to hold parades, the North and West were going to quickly surrender when faced with the might of the Russian army and particularly once their President realised he was completely out of his depth and fled the country (to Poland or Hungary or even the USA).

 

Instead, he's discovered that Ukraine is now cosmopolitan, democratic, has no interests in a return to being a Russian satellite state and will literally fight to the last man to prevent that happening. At that point, all bets are off the table.

 

The reason why the areas populated by Russian speakers are suffering the heaviest shelling is mainly because of geography. Kherson and Mariupol (two places a week ago I didn't even know existed) are both on the Black Sea coast, Kherson to the North of the Crimean Peninsula, Mariupol to the east of the Donbas. Capturing Kherson is crucial to forces in Crimea having clear passage into central Ukraine. It also helps them to control access to the Dnieper river, the main waterway of Ukraine and a key supply line, which has also been used to starve annexed Crimea of fresh water (Ukraine dammed the Dnieper after the annexation in 2014, so Crimea must import water). Mariupol is now crucial as it's the only city standing between creating a land bridge from the Donbas (where the rebels are in charge) and Crimea (now annexed Russian territory). This would enable the Russian forces in the South and East to unite, and also provide Putin with one of his main aims of this invasion, which was to create a land bridge from Russia to Crimea, something I'm not sure he'd easily give up in any peace settlement.

 

The reason Kherson and Mariupol have faced the greatest shelling is because the Russians have made swiftest gains there. They've been able to surround and bombard both cities relentlessly, whereas its taken them some time to reach Kharkiv (which is now starting to face similar shelling), Kyiv (which they're really struggling to reach) and Dnipro (which is in the centre of the country and thus the main thrust of Russian offensives haven't got there yet.

 

As @msc says, I also think it's only going to get worse the longer Ukraine holds out. Putin cannot lose this conflict. If he does, he's finished as Russian leader. On Ukrainecast (the BBC's new podcast about the crisis) yesterday, they suggested there were only 3 possible ways this could end (short of, you know, WW3):

 

1. Putin wins (Ukraine agrees to demilitarise, never join NATO, become a Russian puppet like Belarus).

2. Putin is ousted (I think he followed this with "somehow" because it seems unlikely given the power he wields).

3. A deal is reached, which allows Putin to save face but gives Ukraine what they want, though what could possibly fulfil both those criteria successfully seems slim, particularly without making Putin think it might be worth trying the same tactics in Georgia and Moldova and the Baltuc States...

 

The problem for Putin is he thinks all these former Soviet satellite states are turning their back on Russia because they are becoming part of some American Empire on Russia's doorstep. That's not the case. They aspire for democracy, freedom and to become part of the European economy. None of that is possible if they ally themselves with Russia, a kleptocracy run by a paranoid dictator where opposition is ruthlessly destroyed and freedom of the press is non-existent. He is the reason these countries want nothing to do with Russia. He is the reason they would rather die than live under his control.

[RoverAndOut 3,471]

1 hour ago, CastAway said:

People fleeing Russia amidst reports that Putin's upcoming speech (should be given within the next few hours) will include a declaration of martial law in the country. Lawmakers in-country drafting a law that forces people arrested for protesting the invasion in Russia to be conscripted into the army to fight in Ukraine in a sick twist of things. 

 

Good idea. Give them a gun, take them to Ukraine and see which side they choose to fight for. They should maybe focus on all their actual soldiers who don't want to be there before introducing more people who feel that way to the situation.

[The Old Crem 3,174]

1 hour ago, RoverAndOut said:

 

It depends what his objectives are. Clearly he genuinely thought he was going to march into Ukraine, the South and East were going to hold parades, the North and West were going to quickly surrender when faced with the might of the Russian army and particularly once their President realised he was completely out of his depth and fled the country (to Poland or Hungary or even the USA).

 

Instead, he's discovered that Ukraine is now cosmopolitan, democratic, has no interests in a return to being a Russian satellite state and will literally fight to the last man to prevent that happening. At that point, all bets are off the table.

 

The reason why the areas populated by Russian speakers are suffering the heaviest shelling is mainly because of geography. Kherson and Mariupol (two places a week ago I didn't even know existed) are both on the Black Sea coast, Kherson to the North of the Crimean Peninsula, Mariupol to the east of the Donbas. Capturing Kherson is crucial to forces in Crimea having clear passage into central Ukraine. It also helps them to control access to the Dnieper river, the main waterway of Ukraine and a key supply line, which has also been used to starve annexed Crimea of fresh water (Ukraine dammed the Dnieper after the annexation in 2014, so Crimea must import water). Mariupol is now crucial as it's the only city standing between creating a land bridge from the Donbas (where the rebels are in charge) and Crimea (now annexed Russian territory). This would enable the Russian forces in the South and East to unite, and also provide Putin with one of his main aims of this invasion, which was to create a land bridge from Russia to Crimea, something I'm not sure he'd easily give up in any peace settlement.

 

The reason Kherson and Mariupol have faced the greatest shelling is because the Russians have made swiftest gains there. They've been able to surround and bombard both cities relentlessly, whereas its taken them some time to reach Kharkiv (which is now starting to face similar shelling), Kyiv (which they're really struggling to reach) and Dnipro (which is in the centre of the country and thus the main thrust of Russian offensives haven't got there yet.

 

As @msc says, I also think it's only going to get worse the longer Ukraine holds out. Putin cannot lose this conflict. If he does, he's finished as Russian leader. On Ukrainecast (the BBC's new podcast about the crisis) yesterday, they suggested there were only 3 possible ways this could end (short of, you know, WW3):

 

1. Putin wins (Ukraine agrees to demilitarise, never join NATO, become a Russian puppet like Belarus).

2. Putin is ousted (I think he followed this with "somehow" because it seems unlikely given the power he wields).

3. A deal is reached, which allows Putin to save face but gives Ukraine what they want, though what could possibly fulfil both those criteria successfully seems slim, particularly without making Putin think it might be worth trying the same tactics in Georgia and Moldova and the Baltuc States...

 

The problem for Putin is he thinks all these former Soviet satellite states are turning their back on Russia because they are becoming part of some American Empire on Russia's doorstep. That's not the case. They aspire for democracy, freedom and to become part of the European economy. None of that is possible if they ally themselves with Russia, a kleptocracy run by a paranoid dictator where opposition is ruthlessly destroyed and freedom of the press is non-existent. He is the reason these countries want nothing to do with Russia. He is the reason they would rather die than live under his control.

And it’s Hard to see Putin wining per see. He might capture Ukraine but it have to be run like an occupation with full on martial law to prevent resistance. That will be very expensive and costly when crippled by sanctions. 

[the_engineer 1,405]

4 hours ago, RoverAndOut said:

 

Good idea. Give them a gun, take them to Ukraine and see which side they choose to fight for. They should maybe focus on all their actual soldiers who don't want to be there before introducing more people who feel that way to the situation.

 

I think it's a way the Russians can disappear protestors. Where's my son? We sent him to fight in

 Ukraine! When In reality he was shot or tortured and put in an unmarked grave.

[the_engineer 1,405]

Does Putin want to capture all of Ukraine or just the east and south? The way they're moving on Kyiv points towards all of Ukraine but once he has captured Kyiv ,the south and east he might use Kyiv as a negotiation chip. Basically we'll give back Kyiv but east and south become the Ukrainian Belarus. 

[The Old Crem 3,174]

1 minute ago, the_engineer said:

Does Putin want to capture all of Ukraine or just the east and south? The way they're moving on Kyiv points towards all of Ukraine but once he has captured Kyiv ,the south and east he might use Kyiv as a negotiation chip. Basically we'll give back Kyiv but east and south become Basically the Ukrainian Belarus. 

He told Macron he wants all of Ukraine. 

[msc 17,762]

5 hours ago, RoverAndOut said:

 

 

The reason why the areas populated by Russian speakers are suffering the heaviest shelling is mainly because of geography. Kherson and Mariupol (two places a week ago I didn't even know existed)

 

I did know of Mariupol thanks to their football team, but it looks increasingly like a place that wont exist in a weeks time. Russia exploding it and killing civilians until the city surrenders, which it hasn't yet. The sort of atrocity you were taught about in schools that the Nazis did. 

 

With Kherson falling, next in line is Mykolaiv, currently being attacked, which is where the folk I know of in Ukraine live. Fuck Putin. 

[prussianblue 792]

5 hours ago, RoverAndOut said:

As @msc says, I also think it's only going to get worse the longer Ukraine holds out. Putin cannot lose this conflict. If he does, he's finished as Russian leader. On Ukrainecast (the BBC's new podcast about the crisis) yesterday, they suggested there were only 3 possible ways this could end (short of, you know, WW3):

 

1. Putin wins (Ukraine agrees to demilitarise, never join NATO, become a Russian puppet like Belarus).

2. Putin is ousted (I think he followed this with "somehow" because it seems unlikely given the power he wields).

3. A deal is reached, which allows Putin to save face but gives Ukraine what they want, though what could possibly fulfil both those criteria successfully seems slim, particularly without making Putin think it might be worth trying the same tactics in Georgia and Moldova and the Baltic states.

 

Re. option 2, Anonymous claimed that people in the FSB gave the Ukrainian government a tip-off about a Chechen hit squad looking for Zelenskyy. If there are people in the Russian security apparatus who are willing to aid their supposed enemy, then perhaps there is appetite for a coup.

 

Let's face it, unless you are Putin or his hardline coterie, it must be obvious that Russia has nothing to gain from this but a bombed-out wasteland full of insurgents, at the cost of thousands dead and an economy in ruins.

 

Khrushchev was removed through a palace coup, and Gorbachev was subject to an attempt, so it can happen.

[arghton 6,123]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/indian-student-hospitalised-for-stroke-dies-in-ukraine-city-101646248093765-amp.html

Indian student, 22, dead in Ukraine from stroke. 

 

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/top-wrap-1-europes-largest-nuclear-power-plant-fire-after-russian-attack-mayor-2022-03-04/

Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant reportedly on fire.

[YoungWillz 19,063]

2 hours ago, msc said:

 

I did know of Mariupol thanks to their football team, but it looks increasingly like a place that wont exist in a weeks time. Russia exploding it and killing civilians until the city surrenders, which it hasn't yet. The sort of atrocity you were taught about in schools that the Nazis did. 

 

With Kherson falling, next in line is Mykolaiv, currently being attacked, which is where the folk I know of in Ukraine live. Fuck Putin. 

Were you taught about the Second World War?

 

I wasn't. NOT AT ALL. And does it really need to be taught, with the History Channel and Yesterday giving us a Nazi nuance every 5 minutes? 

 

I guess there's a whole lot of history, if schools want to focus on a tiny teeny wee part of it, that's fine. 

[The Old Crem 3,174]

The BBC are saying the largest nuclear Power plant in Europe is on fire..

 

The Ukrainians say if it explodes it will be ten times worse than Chernobyl. 

[The Old Crem 3,174]

16 minutes ago, YoungWillz said:

Were you taught about the Second World War?

 

I wasn't. NOT AT ALL. And does it really need to be taught, with the History Channel and Yesterday giving us a Nazi nuance every 5 minutes? 

 

I guess there's a whole lot of history, if schools want to focus on a tiny teeny wee part of it, that's fine. 

I was taught about WW2 and was meant to be extensively taught about WW1 but my history teacher randomly did several very fascinating weeks about Māori history instead (He was part Māori) and the sort of jumped to WW2 as I remember doing Hitler with him. 

[YoungWillz 19,063]

Just now, The Old Crem said:

I was taught about WW2 and was meant to be extensively taught about WW1 but my history teacher randomly did several very fascinating weeks about Māori history instead (He was part Māori) and the sort of jumped to WW2 as I remember doing Hitler with him. 

Sure you don't mean Maorijuana? (see what I did there?). 

 

I've often wondered when I watch game shows that folk are seriously undereducated about their history. I know the houses of royalty, the members of it, the Act of Union, the East India Company, the Industrial Revolution....we did a massive sweep and it was all terribly interesting.

 

I cannot think of anything more dull than the annexation of the Sudetenland up to Yalta and VE Day. We were of course aware of the war, but it wasn't something we were taught - we had a more social history syllabus, which we climbed on board and rode all the way to Higher passes.

[YoungWillz 19,063]

15 minutes ago, The Old Crem said:

The BBC are saying the largest nuclear Power plant in Europe is on fire..

 

The Ukrainians say if it explodes it will be ten times worse than Chernobyl. 

Lovely pictures of the attack on Sky News, showing the fire breaking out.

 

Radiation, radiation, that's what we need....

[Death Impends 7,371]

What sticks in my mind from when my high school history classes got to World War II is that they taught about the US Japanese internment camps. It strikes me as something lots of US schools would pretend never happened.

[Toast 14,844]

All this horror caused by one vile creature.  I won't call it a man.

[maryportfuncity 10,017]

10 hours ago, The Old Crem said:

He told Macron he wants all of Ukraine. 

 

He told his people it isn't a war

[msc 17,762]

9 hours ago, YoungWillz said:

Were you taught about the Second World War?

 

I wasn't. NOT AT ALL. And does it really need to be taught, with the History Channel and Yesterday giving us a Nazi nuance every 5 minutes? 

 

I guess there's a whole lot of history, if schools want to focus on a tiny teeny wee part of it, that's fine. 

 

Yes. Primary school - the Blitz, Vera Lynn (it was weird to have something I was taught about IN history as a wee kid be still with us nearly 30 years later!), Jewish persecution through Judith Kerr's memoirs, the Holocaust itself - grim learning for 10 year olds. Also evacuation. I've forgotten her name, there was this old woman (she died about a decade ago,  she got an obit at the time!) and she used to go round schools and talk about her experiences in WW2  - anyhow, she came to our class and all. (This was a basic working class Glasgow primary, nowt fancy - just a really good teacher we had.)

 

Secondary school - Rise of Hitler, German inter-war politics, appeasement. It tailed off somewhat when the actual battles started. Also the Liberal reforms of 1906-1910 as my History teacher at the time was a massive Henry Campbell-Bannerman fan. A phrase never used on the internet before, possibly. Attlee's government was covered, and in Modern Studies we did the 60s, but my teacher for that was a Thatcherite so it was from a downer perspective! (We had entire lessons on Anthony Meyers attempts to take down Thatcher in 1988. Who the fuck remembers Anthony Meyer?) There was a chance to meet Donald Dewar, but he went and got ill and then died instead, which I feel was really inconsiderate of him, as his replacement was Michael fucking Martin, who was shite!

 

This was when we weren't looking at Scottish history. Over and over again. Mary Queen of Scots was only 44 when she died, you'd think there's only so many hours you can devote to her!

[YoungWillz 19,063]

So ingrained is this teaching I would say, which probably lead to the BBC announcer just before half nine this morning talking about the attack on the Ukrainian power plant by......

 

Germany. 

 

I left the room, I'm assuming that was quickly corrected.