Political Discussions And Ranting Thread

[Grim Up North 3,725]

Hmmm the Palestinian situation is incredibly complex - I doubt anyone can clearly capture the rights and wrongs performed in that region and the whys and whens even in a book never mind a post on X.

[The Old Crem 3,582]

 

[YoungWillz 21,027]

Rachel Reeves has conferenced her speech.

 

Now, I'm no economist, so I'll have to look at her speech like an actual voter. 

 

I think she has drawn on both wings of America. She talked about making things in Britain and growing the British economy in some protectionist manner like a little MAGA offshoot, while also promising bottom up middle out growth like a Democrat.

 

There was an awful lot of "Conservative Party/Government" - ah the old look at the state of us. Then goes on to essentially promise what we has trailed before.

 

Look at all the taxes the Tories have piled on us - well, we won't be able to reduce taxes, much as we would like to - but we will slap a bunch of taxes on a whole lot of stuff. Then follows that up with we can't tax and spend our way out of trouble!

 

No promises on HS2 - except an inquiry into the failings!

 

Not a word - not one- on inflation. That troubles me somewhat - all this talk of raising a living wage and higher wages without any plan to deal with inflation is a fool's road - is she hoping for those damnable Tories to fix that before the election?

 

Labour have always promised to abolish the non-dom status - then never do it when in Government - Sunak's achilles heel, if that isn't delivered now, they will be in trouble.

 

She will get all that fraudulently obtained COVID money back - by spending hundred of thousands, if not millions, on a crack force to get it back? Come on love, what this country needs is to treat tax dodgers with the same force as they do with benefit scroungers. Talking of which, a skilful swerve on any reform of the Universal Credit system - not a peep, nor any hope for the WASPI women or reform of the sanctions regime or the two child benefit cap.

 

There is a danger they are going down the same rocky road as they did in 2019 - over-promising to the extent that folk don't actually believe things will be delivered. She wants to be the first female Chancellor, she says. Don't push that message, we all remember what the last female PMs were like!

 

Also, when you are talking about the benefits to the whole of the country, it might be an idea to mention Scotland more than once! 

 

Regards, etc etc.

[RoverAndOut 4,746]

Sorry to bring it back to Israel but it is a major world event and I'm not prophesising the end of the world or advocating mass murder like certain others around here. Just wanted to flag up an excellent article from Ian Birrell in today's 'i' newspaper, which I've managed to copy below (avoiding their paywall). The title is: "This is Israel's 9/11 and the impact will be global".

 

Spoiler

The symbolism could not be starker: young people at a rave for peace in the desert, their happiness and spirit of unity shattered by the rumble of rockets and arrival of gunmen intent on kidnap and killing. Joy turned instantly to panic, sounds of trance music replaced by screams of terror as dancers fled in fear.

Two women survived by playing dead beside the bloodied corpse of their driver. A wounded man watched his friend slowly die, trapped in a bullet-ridden car for three hours. A German tourist, unconscious and semi-naked, was displayed on a truck. Scores more, including two Britons, are missing. “Dad, I love you if I don’t see you again,” one woman texted her distraught father.

This was the day that stunned Israel as Hamas attackers poured out from the Gaza strip by land, sea and air. It is a grotesque horror story of historic importance fused with epic failure of leadership. A country that prides itself on the ability of its security apparatus to protect its people was surprised by a terror group bursting out of its prison-like fiefdom. Jerusalem’s intelligence machinery, supposed to be so slick, failed to detect an operation involving thousands of missiles and hundreds of men that one expert said must have been at least a year in the making.

 

The result was the sickening slaughter of people in their own homes and streets, kidnap of innocent civilians, attacks on kibbutzim and even infiltration of Israel’s military bases.

Many noted the significance of these events occurring almost 50 years to the day of the start of the Yom Kippur War, which began with a surprise assault by Syrian tank columns and Egyptian army brigades. The shock to the national psyche is similar, although thankfully Israel does not face an existential fight to survive this time.

Yet the intelligence failures seem even worse, given the intensity of their grip on Gaza that includes “unbreachable” barriers, motion sensors, control of communications, undercover agents and informants, cameras and spy drones. As one senior Israeli diplomat said, this is really their 9/11 – and like that shocking attack on the United States, the impact will be felt far beyond Israel’s own borders.

Whatever happens over the next few days and weeks, Hamas and its allies in Iran humiliated Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s longest-serving prime minister. Supporters bill him as “Mr Security” but after returning to power nine months ago in tandem with the far-right, he is left indelibly stained as the leader who failed to perform his most basic duty to protect citizens.

 

As I write, more than 32 hours after the start of this chilling attack, Israeli forces are still fighting to take back control of their own land and there seems growing anger over their sluggish response as more heartbreaking footage emerges of dead bodies in streets and terrified women being kidnapped.

Probably the nation will come together as it confronts the immense challenge of trying to free captives taken to Gaza, who reportedly include senior military officers alongside civilians such as those partygoers. Bear in mind it took five years and the handover of 1,027 Palestinian prisoners to secure the release of Gilad Shalit, a teenage soldier taken by Hamas in 2006. One jubilant Hamas official crowed that they might now free all their jailed militants. Certainly, Israel would be reluctant to send its forces back into densely-populated Gaza with the risk of heavy casualties on both sides, let alone take back control of the shattered enclave it gave up in 2005. There are, however, no easy options on the turbulent road ahead.

 

But was Hamas emboldened by the turmoil unleashed by a prime minister battling corruption charges who sparked bitter divisions over controversial judicial reforms in Israel while allowing extremists in government to stoke tensions in the occupied territories?

Let us hope that if any good can emerge from this nightmare it shocks Israel back into sense with a government of national unity that drops the far-right, dumps the judicial overhaul, ditches the expansion of settlements in occupied territories and reins in the settlers. Then, later, to reflect on how they reached this dark point – and reform their democracy to weaken the hold of religious and political fanatics while dropping any delusion that peace can be rooted on repression.

The failure of peace talks at the start of this century, followed by the Second Intifada, led Israel to try to contain the Palestinians, then exploit its economic and technological clout to disempower them though normalising relationships with Arab states.

These atrocities deliberately crush the concept of containment since Israel must respond. The savagery comes as Saudi Arabia shifts towards recognition of the Jewish state. Frustration and fury has grown in the West Bank, often stirred by Hamas. There is fear Hezbollah, the well-armed militia that controls southern Lebanon, might join the attack – as it did after Gilad was grabbed 17 years ago. Iran backs both groups – and is jostling for regional supremacy with Riyadh while the war in Ukraine led it closer to Moscow in opposition to a shared enemy in Washington.

Yet do not fall for the risible claim that Hamas represents the two million people trapped in Gaza, one of the poorest parts of the planet. The lack of hope and jobs makes it easier to find “martyrs” for its cause, but this is a gang that terrorises its own people as well as foes.

 

Few dare criticise them openly in Gaza. One man told me of seeing them execute members of their rivals Fatah near his house when I last visited. Another resident, beaten and tortured by their security thugs, asked in despair how they could ever shake off the shackles of their Islamist overlords?

The only certainty from these terrible events is that the Hamas gangsters will make life even worse for Palestinians. Meanwhile the dance of death goes on in this region devoid of decent leadership as the blood of innocent Jews and Arabs stains the soil once again.

 

For those who don't want to read it all, the part that particularly resonated was the following: "Let us hope that if any good can emerge from this nightmare it shocks Israel back into sense with a government of national unity that drops the far-right, dumps the judicial overhaul, ditches the expansion of settlements in occupied territories and reins in the settlers. Then, later, to reflect on how they reached this dark point - and reform their democracy to weaken the hold of religious and political fanatics while dropping any delusion that peace can be rooted in repression."

 

A very sensible and even-handed evaluation, which I hope will be heeded in the medium- to long-term (though history tells me it is unlikely).

 

The other thing that struck me today was an interview with a survivor of the festival massacre on the ITV Evening News. After recounting her horrific story, she was asked if she wanted revenge against the people that did it. She thought about it for a second, slowly shaking her head and said, tearfully, "I just want peace." And that is all that will ever solve this issue. Not repression, not occupation, not insurrection, not terrorism: peace.

 

[The Old Crem 3,582]

Good article but Hard to imagine Israel not becoming more right wing after this-based solely on demographics. 

[YoungWillz 21,027]

Wish, really wish, I could criticise Yvette Cooper's conference speech in detail. 

 

If anything, she danced over issues. There will be all this police, all this locking up of bad eggs, all this dismissal of bent coppers - with no idea how to address the police recruitment crisis. Never mind prison conditions or prison officers - not a peep on that.

 

She was very strong on going after domestic abusers. If those being abused are women. Because after all Yvette, women don't abuse men and men don't get raped, do they?

 

Still throwing their hands in the air about knives. They keep getting told to look at the Glasgow programme from donkeys' years ago - that's where you get a grip.

 

Otherwise, there was a lot of aspiration - a speech yet again a Tory Home Secretary could have delivered (if that Tory Home Secretary wasn't the nutter Braverman).

 

And I do not know who writes her jokes. Don't they have professionals they could actually use?

 

Regards, etc etc.

[YoungWillz 21,027]

Starmer gets a standing ovation and a protester who soaks him in summat! 

 

Hadn't even started.

[TQR 14,385]

With my tin foil hat on, I'd say the glitter shower could've been planned, particularly how he used it as an example of his "Labour is not the party of gesture politics" line. It's great publicity innit.

 

Protester said: "True democracy is citizen led. Politics needs an update. We demand a people's house. We are in crisis. We demand green justice. Democracy first."

[YoungWillz 21,027]

6 minutes ago, TQR said:

With my tin foil hat on, I'd say the glitter shower could've been planned, particularly how he used it as an example of his "Labour is not the party of gesture politics" line. It's great publicity innit.

Glitter improves everything.

 

He's been talking for 25 minutes and I haven't heard a policy out of his mouth.

[TQR 14,385]

6 minutes ago, YoungWillz said:

Glitter improves everything.

 

He's been talking for 25 minutes and I haven't heard a policy out of his mouth.

What were you expecting? Conference speeches tend not to be manifesto read-throughs. Whether they should be or not is another matter.

[YoungWillz 21,027]

7 minutes ago, TQR said:

What were you expecting? Conference speeches tend not to be manifesto read-throughs. Whether they should be or not is another matter.

I'll get to that when he's finished. 

[TQR 14,385]

FWIW I hear a very competent, fairly principled and professional PM-in-waiting, being moderately asphyxiated by his own cautiousness.

 

Tbf though he could've shoved the mic up his arse and explosively expelled it along with last night's curry and the general feeling would still be "Well, it's better than the Tories at least".

[YoungWillz 21,027]

Well, I'm annoyed. I've missed the beginning of Tenable.

 

Well there was a lot of end points with so little as to how to get there. While the assumption is that, of course, his conference know the policies, he seems to have forgotten that he is talking to the public, who don't know. So all very inspiring, rallying and aspirational, little meat on the bones.

 

He finally remembered Scotland after nearly an hour, which was nice. But it isn't only Scotland where he'll have to work hard for votes. 

 

However, an appeal to long term stability and rebalancing the economy is always welcome. It was like a half time talk at the football. 

[polar duck 866]

On 01/10/2023 at 16:16, lilham said:

American politics:

I think it's possible that McCarthy is expelled as Speaker of the House next week, and the GOP have literally no one else lined up to replace him. The obvious choice of Scalise seems off the table as he's getting chemo. 

 

Steve Scalise lined up to replace McCarthy

[Sean 6,313]

10 minutes ago, polar duck said:

 

Steve Scalise lined up to replace McCarthy

  Extreme stress , chemotherapy and Multiple Myeloma are not a good combination.

[Sean 6,313]

Seems to be a pattern of American Politicians almost being required to be medically unfit in order to qualify for high office these days.

[Tango854 278]

24 minutes ago, polar duck said:

 

Steve Scalise lined up to replace McCarthy

I can't believe the Klan has gone WOKE and has now allowed CATHOLICS into their ranks smh.

[Tango854 278]

3 minutes ago, Tango854 said:

I can't believe the Klan has gone WOKE and has now allowed CATHOLICS into their ranks smh.

do I really need to explain why I called Steve 'david duke without the baggage' Scalise a klansman?

[lilham 752]

32 minutes ago, Sean said:

  Extreme stress , chemotherapy and Multiple Myeloma are not a good combination.

speaker of the house could be a fun one for a death list.

[gcreptile 10,964]

Breaking news while reading an article on Rose West, SNP MP Lisa Cameron switches to the Tories:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-snp-mp-quits-party-31168653#source=breaking-news

[prussianblue 1,026]

20 minutes ago, gcreptile said:

Breaking news while rading an article on Rose West, SNP MP Lisa Cameron switches to the Tories:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-snp-mp-quits-party-31168653#source=breaking-news

 

Was just reading the BBC article on this. Ideologically inconsistent, to say the least, and unlikely to ensure career longevity. A massive fuck you to her constituents too.

[TQR 14,385]

Imagine switching to the Tories now. Lord god.

[Bibliogryphon 9,570]

I am not sure what the polling is looking like in her constituency for the GE but this may be a fit of pique and an opportunity to lay one on the current SNP leadership. Even if she is likely to be re-elected if she is not in with the leadership then does she have anywhere to go.

I had heard that Mhari Black was not happy about the way the selection of her successor was being handled. I suspect the under the surface the SNP are like rats in a sack.

[prussianblue 1,026]

She got 46.4% in 2019, more than the Labour and Conservative vote combined (22.7% and 21.2% respectively). Boundary changes are removing Lesmahagow, so it's going to be East Kilbride that determines the numbers, and that was a Labour seat before the 2010s SNP dominance set in. Rutherglen is 6 miles from East Kilbride, and we saw how the Tory vote went there last week!

[The Old Crem 3,582]

The Scottish Parliament electoral system means she will probably get a nice high placing on a list in 2026 and be elected for the Tories in that Parliament.