YoungWillz 21,037 Posted June 26 I really had problems watching this. But it was like a road traffic incident - I couldn't look away. Politicians are really really stupid sometimes. No matter how much you prepare, you are never really ready for the questions, some so skewed or nuanced you will never satisfy the questioner. I think that's where Starmer falls down in these "debates". As a lawyer you would prepare having been handed the other side's evidence in advance - here that simply doesn't work, he's not an agile performer who can leap from rocky outcrop to green pastures. Sunak on the other hand is a prick who thinks debating like you do in front of crowds roaring you on is a win. In fact he came across as a fear-mongering dick who made up almost everything and shouted down a lot of Starmer's answers. Hopefully most people with any sense made up their minds a long time ago. My main takeaways from today are the basics as follows: 1. Sunak will cut your taxes. Ok then, let's look at what that means. That means he is going to cut everyone's taxes. Given the tax system in this country that means that tax cuts will proportionally favour the rich and wealthy. Like Sunak. I see little in the way of recovery of the loss of that revenue stream to the Treasury. Now I'm old enough to remember Thatcher's government who at least had public utilities to sell off to fund tax cuts, but like the current government they weren't interested in building schools or hospitals or investing in public services - indeed, I'd go so far to say that in making certain parts of the country poorer, that actually made them qualify for help from...Europe. The country is crying out for better everything, but Sunak says, I'll give you a little back, I'll take a lot for myself and nothing will actually get better. 2. Meantime, Starmer is promising more Blair. Collegiate decision making, tackling social ills blah bah blah, but pairs that with inviting big business to sit alongside him and hope that growth follows. His difficulty with that message is that people remember how their towns and cities gave Labour their vote and then were forgotten about. He also can't promise jam tomorrow to any great effect because the Tories stopped baking bread 14 fucking years ago. While he seemingly has good intentions, by swinging from Corbyn's incredulous plans for spending to a minimal amount of spending, people can't see where that improvement is going to come from - and he's not a great message carrier. The guy who said "are these guys the best we have" was simply a tosser. I'll bet he longs for the days of Johnson, full of populism and colour but with all the ability of Tess Daly. I thought Starmer was a little better at analysing the problems in the round - get the waiting lists down lower crime and get people off welfare and back to work, and incentivise bosses to do that. Sunak on the other hand is content with how Britain is with it's outlandish National Debt, it's crumbling infrastructure and wasteland town centres, but hey, here's a couple of quid to make you shut up, and hate those horrid benefit scroungers and those nasty nasty immigrants he keeps letting into the country. Anything is preferable to the current incumbents, but another round of Red Tories isn't that appealing either. So anyway, Binface for PM. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoverAndOut 4,746 Posted June 26 8 minutes ago, Father Brown said: Starmer’s spent this whole campaign treading on eggshells trying to not piss off the electorate and the media and letting the absolute shambles state of the Tories do the heavy lifting, I just hope the next few years aren’t going to be like this. Problem is (and I hope and pray he gets the supermajority the Tories are warning against), I am absolutely 100% going to vote for him and his obfuscation and refusal to engage is starting to really piss ME off. It's infuriating. I get that the Tories are shit, and you want to focus on that, but show yourself to be engaged and switched on and treat the voters with at least a basic level of honesty. I totally understand their reticence, the public have screwed them over time and again but Sunak is an absolute bellend and he should be telling us that. I was expecting a much more combative performance compared to the first debate a month ago, but essentially it was a repeat. Sunak lied about tax at every opportunity and introduced the new "whatever the issue, Labour will make it worse, mark my words" and Starmer said Sunak was lying and that Labour will fix everything but in a serious and responsible way. Totally depressing. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TQR 14,387 Posted June 26 I was out this evening so I missed it. Looks like I won't be needing BBC iPlayer. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoverAndOut 4,746 Posted June 27 26 minutes ago, TQR said: I was out this evening so I missed it. Looks like I won't be needing BBC iPlayer. I thought you'd been quiet tonight. I've had to stay up an hour afterwards just to calm down before I try to sleep. Sunak really made my blood boil tonight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YoungWillz 21,037 Posted June 27 Lot of talk this morning about Sunak's "surrender" line last night. Surrender to Labour? In return, if it means 5 more years of this Tory government then I have my own little tune playing in my head. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TQR 14,387 Posted June 27 Well colour me shocked. Greg Hands lying?? Blimey. Er... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCI Frank Burnside 3,887 Posted June 27 46 minutes ago, TQR said: Well colour me shocked. Greg Hands lying?? Blimey. Er... He's doubling down 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Father Brown 209 Posted June 27 9 hours ago, RoverAndOut said: Problem is (and I hope and pray he gets the supermajority the Tories are warning against), I am absolutely 100% going to vote for him and his obfuscation and refusal to engage is starting to really piss ME off. It's infuriating. That’s how I feel as well. The Tories have got to go but the next 5 years cannot be Labour dragging their feet and sitting on the fence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
En Passant 3,741 Posted June 27 1 hour ago, Father Brown said: That’s how I feel as well. The Tories have got to go but the next 5 years cannot be Labour dragging their feet and sitting on the fence. As discussed some pages above by me and @RoverAndOut it's not going to fulfil our dreams as of now - they don't appear to be committing to anything substantial just yet, as being that honest is electorally daft . We're just going to have to wait until after they're in to see what they actually do - I'm with you on this though, if they sit on the fence for a year never mind five, I'm going to be pissed off. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCI Frank Burnside 3,887 Posted June 27 The Torygraph having a normal one I see.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YoungWillz 21,037 Posted June 27 Tory donor Sir John Hall defects to Reform. https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2024-06-27/tory-donor-and-ex-newcastle-united-owner-sir-john-hall-endorses-reform-uk John Hall is 91. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TQR 14,387 Posted June 27 3 minutes ago, YoungWillz said: Tory donor Sir John Hall defects to Reform. https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2024-06-27/tory-donor-and-ex-newcastle-united-owner-sir-john-hall-endorses-reform-uk John Hall is 91. He'll be able to join their youth wing, then. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCI Frank Burnside 3,887 Posted June 27 Amazing 2 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TQR 14,387 Posted June 27 It's not just Rishi Suank and Kemi Bad Enoch and Penny Taxis with an appalling temper. James Cleverly (or Jimmy Dimly, as John Crace calls him) also failed to keep his cool when speaking to KGM yesterday. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sly Ronnie 879 Posted June 27 6 hours ago, DCI Frank Burnside said: The Torygraph having a normal one I see.... I can't remember the Torygraph being all apocalyptic when Blair won 1997 or 2001. Maybe they were and most people just ignored it. Now some of us on here have our reservations about Starmer for sure but clearly there is something about him which really boils the piss of the right-wing press. Which is interesting to say the least. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCI Frank Burnside 3,887 Posted June 27 Chris Patten not holding back 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BuffaloPhil 926 Posted June 27 I always like to have a look at Vote For Policies to see which parties I actually align with (before tactically voting to get the Tories out, due to our antiquated electoral system.) As I expected, I came out mostly as a mix of Green, Lib Dem and Labour, with Green being the closest match to my views. I was interested to see the results of their amalgamation of everyone who's gone through their test so far : I wonder how many people would actually vote Green if they didn't feel it was a wasted vote. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TQR 14,387 Posted June 27 36 minutes ago, BuffaloPhil said: I always like to have a look at Vote For Policies to see which parties I actually align with (before tactically voting to get the Tories out, due to our antiquated electoral system.) As I expected, I came out mostly as a mix of Green, Lib Dem and Labour, with Green being the closest match to my views. I wonder how many people would actually vote Green if they didn't feel it was a wasted vote. This was me: Worth mentioning that the big I Side With questionnaire had me at 94% Green, 93% Labour and 89% Lib Dem, with the Tories being down in the 20s and Reform on 7 or something, so I was bound to get these three. I suppose, with picking full sets of policies rather than each individually, it paints a different picture but probably more helpful in the context of deciding who to vote for. Having said that, I'm sticking with my tactical vote which is Labour, and whilst I'd like to see bolder policies from them, I can understand why they are as they are for now and am hopeful for a shift in that direction maybe for their second term. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCI Frank Burnside 3,887 Posted June 27 Yes that'll be it Owen . The voters are too stupid to read Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoverAndOut 4,746 Posted June 27 You couldn't make it up. Don't treat the election as a chance to tell us what you think of us. Fuck me, Rishi, how pathetic do you sound? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoverAndOut 4,746 Posted June 27 36 minutes ago, DCI Frank Burnside said: Yes that'll be it Owen . The voters are too stupid to read NARGUND, Praval - Labour Party CORBYN, Jeremy - Independent I wonder how I vote for Jeremy Corbyn? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Old Crem 3,583 Posted June 27 3 hours ago, Sly Ronnie said: I can't remember the Torygraph being all apocalyptic when Blair won 1997 or 2001. Maybe they were and most people just ignored it. Now some of us on here have our reservations about Starmer for sure but clearly there is something about him which really boils the piss of the right-wing press. Which is interesting to say the least. Easier to see those articles headlines now a-days. Back in 1997 you had to actually pick up a copy and read it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maryportfuncity 10,646 Posted June 27 5 hours ago, Sly Ronnie said: I can't remember the Torygraph being all apocalyptic when Blair won 1997 or 2001. Maybe they were and most people just ignored it. Now some of us on here have our reservations about Starmer for sure but clearly there is something about him which really boils the piss of the right-wing press. Which is interesting to say the least. No daily has better access to the inner sanctum in Tory HQ. I don't think Starmer is the reason they've invoked the apocalypse, I think it's the dire internal polling, the realisation people out there hate them on an industrial scale and there's no policy idea that begins to turn that trend, and also the thought of so many constituencies with voters rabily drunk on the potential power of tactical voting. And - assuming that isn't enough - the main organs of the die-hard Tory press are also raging against the dying of the light, well aware that their own front page rantings have done nothing to turn the desperate decline in the polls, in fact the more the likes of the Telegraph rant, the worse the polls have turned for the Tories. They're going to be smashed, the only question is how bad the damage will be. Starmer is simply right place, right time to make it happen. I think the comments of (Conservative) Chris Patten above are pertinent to this matter 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
