Derby Dead Pool 2017

[Toast 16,140]

People who have no other claim to fame other than that arising from their illness, eg fundraising, cancer blogging etc.

People who have hawked their mawkish stories to the tabloids, eg bucket lists, letters to children etc.

 

As someone else said "Would their death be reported in the news if they died in a road accident?" (apart from the routine report of the said accident)

If not, they shouldn't count.

[Joey Russ 7,227]

So someone like Rowena Kincaid would definitely still qualify in your books. People like Ben Suisala would probably still qualify as well. But someone like Mark Sims or Lisa Magill would definitely not qualify.

[Bert Trautmann 58]

So someone like Rowena Kincaid would definitely still qualify in your books. People like Ben Suisala would probably still qualify as well. But someone like Mark Sims or Lisa Magill would definitely not qualify.

I don't think Suisala is as famous as you think he is. Anyone can be a rugby 'hopeful'.

 

For me he definitely falls into the Sims category (if that).

[Death Impends 7,975]

I was thinking about this a few nights ago, and came up with the idea of banning certain picks from being jokers. Not your Joey Feek (award nominated musician) or dr Granger (OBE) but your "in a coma" or Shameless-fodder. With the caveat being that if you did pick them as your joker, they were removed and you played without a joker and only 19 names.

 

But, if there is a 2018 DDP, this is stuff we can discuss at great depth in a few months...

 

Random thought - if it were 10 points for 18-49, rather than 12 for 18-29 and 10 for 30-49, then there'd be no real incentive to joker a FFBI as long as there was an absolute dead cert in their 60s or younger. Though the borderline cases are still capable of reaching the Drop 40 (ie the two you referenced).

 

Not arguing to get rid of the extra inch under 30s give, just a "well that's interesting" observation.

[drol 11,946]

Suisala is NOT famous and we know it. Kincaid's fame is borderline, but oh, stop it, we all know who is famous on his own and who is not.

[drol 11,946]

Loughlin, Suisala, Aspin, Magill, Sims, McGiffin, Elias, Zandvliet are NOT famous. All vault material. And we all know that.

[Toast 16,140]

So someone like Rowena Kincaid would definitely still qualify in your books.

 

She's no different from a cancer blogger in my view. If she hadn't happened to work for the BBC she would never have had the opportunity of making a TV programme about her illness.

[Joey Russ 7,227]

Zandvliet is definitely famous. The others are debatable.

[Death Impends 7,975]

Yeah gonna disagree on Van-Zan being a Vault name, he was a key player on the Newcastle Falcons's Premiership-winning team in 1998 - so he's obitworthy on his career alone, rather than just his illness. In contrast to Suisala who only has a chance of obiting due to the dying dad sob story.

[Sean 6,327]

People who have no other claim to fame other than that arising from their illness, eg fundraising, cancer blogging etc.

People who have hawked their mawkish stories to the tabloids, eg bucket lists, letters to children etc.

 

As someone else said "Would their death be reported in the news if they died in a road accident?" (apart from the routine report of the said accident)

If not, they shouldn't count.

If a cancer blogger who has had previous media attention died in a road accident they would definitely obit.Sorry for being facetious .I too prefer to pick those with a genuine claim to fame.In my DDP team I would say most would obit if they hadn`t been known to be ill with the exception of Pete Frates or Gordon Aikman.Problem I guess is you have no idea who is going to bit.A friend of mine died a couple of weeks ago and got a QO but I would never have guessed they would before they died.

[Joey Russ 7,227]

Loughlin, Suisala, Aspin, Magill, Sims, McGiffin, Elias, Zandvliet are NOT famous. All vault material. And we all know that.

Weren't you the one that said Christie and Downie were more famous for being ill than their actual occupations?

[Gooseberry Crumble 5,344]

A lot of this discussion just shows how difficult it is to be 100 percent fair when deciding who's famous and who's not.

I do agree that being famous for being ill and nothing else needs to be stopped IE cancer mums etc

 

But apart from that obvious "wrong" -deciding on who's worthy or who's fame is too fringe is hugely contentious.

 

For instance Jackie Kennedys sister is one of my picks but many on here likely hadn't heard of her -so should she count?

 

I genuinely don't see a way to be fair going beyond banning picks of people who are famous just because their ill.

 

Lot's of the names on here I haven't heard of yet their valid picks. Deciding who's fame isn't too fringe and thus counts can be hugely subjective which is why to me the effective and fair way to tackle this is via the qualifying obituary rules rather than grading levels of obscure or fringe fame.

 

Having said that I'm pretty happy with this pools rules.

[Toast 16,140]

I don't judge people according to whether I've heard of them. My fields of knowledge and interest are far too narrow for that.

Rather, I weigh up whether anyone I know would have heard of them*.

For instance, I'm not familiar with Gord Downie or his band, but my Canadian neighbour certainly is. I don't follow boxing, but Erroll Christie was known to the chaps down the pub who do.

 

 

* but not just because they read a sob story in the Sun.

[Heef 166]

I've always thought the Wikipedia test a useful one to tell if someone's really famous or not. Basically, if they had a Wikipedia page in existence prior to their becoming ill, then they're probably famous for something other than being ill.

 

Someone like Mark Sims doesn't have one.

 

I see Bernie Portenski now has one, but actually she didn't until she died (the edit history shows it was created on the 2nd February this year). Really, even if she'd had a QO (which she didn't - world famous in NZ and all that) then she really wasn't that famous.

 

Errol Christie on the other hand, his Wikipedia page was set up in 2007, which pre-dates his illness being public knowledge. Gord Downie, 2004 etc. etc.

 

Many problems with Wikipedia though. Certainly more likely to find English-language records on there, but most of the really famous people from more obscure countries would probably still have an entry.

[Joey Russ 7,227]

 

But yeah, it's an arms race because if one person makes that pick, everyone else has to. One possible solution that probably needs working on is, not the Wikipedia route (which would penalise people in certain fields and benefit those in others, do we really want every fucking webcomic artist ever to be a valid obit?), but maybe the celeb pick in question has to have been MENTIONED in a qualifying obit source for reasons other than illness prior to them being picked. So for this, say, Rowena Kincaid would count, Kris Travis would count, probably even Kate Granger as well, but your Lauren Hills and the like would get bupkiss.

 

 

Just a possibility for the FFBI picks in the future. I remember reading this sometime last year...

[msc 18,472]

All I'll add is that when people start naming writers I've known about for years (long before they were ill) as "obvious Vault candidates", and title winners in one of the most watched sports in the UK, then clearly the idea of what constitutes fame and being "famous for being ill" is too varied per person for any basic rules to be put in place, beyond what has already been done.

[CaptainChorizo 1,982]

All I'll add is that when people start naming writers I've known about for years (long before they were ill) as "obvious Vault candidates", and title winners in one of the most watched sports in the UK, then clearly the idea of what constitutes fame and being "famous for being ill" is too varied per person for any basic rules to be put in place, beyond what has already been done.

 

Even if someone was only known to people familiar with a certain field if they were famous before their illness then they aren't vault candidates. The tricky thing would be siblings and parents of famous people. Like the McGiffin sister or last years Vanessa Hudgen's dad is a clear case of got a mention because of relative but what happens when someone of marginal notability dies and they are related to someone superfamous. For example Angelina Jolie's brother has bare bones imdb credits but I have seen people scrape daily mail obits with similiar credits and also some people not mentioned on wikipedia or imdb of their death for years with similiar credits.

[CharonsCrew 23]

A lot of this discussion just shows how difficult it is to be 100 percent fair when deciding who's famous and who's not.

I do agree that being famous for being ill and nothing else needs to be stopped IE cancer mums etc

 

But apart from that obvious "wrong" -deciding on who's worthy or who's fame is too fringe is hugely contentious.

 

For instance Jackie Kennedys sister is one of my picks but many on here likely hadn't heard of her -so should she count?

 

I genuinely don't see a way to be fair going beyond banning picks of people who are famous just because their ill.

 

Lot's of the names on here I haven't heard of yet their valid picks. Deciding who's fame isn't too fringe and thus counts can be hugely subjective which is why to me the effective and fair way to tackle this is via the qualifying obituary rules rather than grading levels of obscure or fringe fame.

 

Having said that I'm pretty happy with this pools rules.

Princess Radziwill (Jackie Kennedy's sister) was pretty famous back in her day - I knew her name without having to look it up - so I'd definitely say she counted.

 

I'm new so my opinion probably doesn't carry any weight, but just as a suggestion I think a reasonable rule of thumb would be "Was this person regularly mentioned in the media at some point before they became ill?"

 

So someone famous for having cancer, who also happened to get a one-off mention years ago because they witnessed a robbery wouldn't count.

 

Someone like Lee Radziwill, famous in her day but not mentioned in the media for a long time, would count.

 

But obviously I'm also happy with the rules - just humbly making a suggestion.

 

[drol 11,946]

 

Loughlin, Suisala, Aspin, Magill, Sims, McGiffin, Elias, Zandvliet are NOT famous. All vault material. And we all know that.

Weren't you the one that said Christie and Downie were more famous for being ill than their actual occupations?

 

Nope. That was Biblio (https://forums.deathlist.net/topic/9043-thoughts-on-the-2017-list/?p=295166) and anyway he was referring to the official Deathlist and not to the DDP. Christie, Downie, Bracknell are OBVIOUSLY famous on their own, the question was if they were famous enough for the official DL.

[deadsox 894]

I agree that "cancer mums" shouldn't be considered celebrities but there are exceptions to the "only famous for being ill" rule. An example is the case of Terri Schiavo several years back. Yes she was only famous for being ill, but her illness sparked a furious legal battle over her "right to die" and the case and notoriety made her a real "celebrity" as far as I can judge. What I'm saying here is that it's difficult to make a hard and fast rule for who is a celebrity.

[YoungWillz 21,046]

Brought Forward:

 

Round Up #4 (Never Met A Nice South African Special):

 

Ken Morrison: https://forums.death...-2017/?p=296080 (Carried Over)

 

BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-38827688

 

Desmond Carrington: https://forums.death...-2017/?p=296154 (Carried Over)

 

BBC Obit: http://www.bbc.co.uk...t-arts-38835961

 

Gordon Aikman: https://forums.death...dying/?p=296389 (Mirror Obit In Link) (Carried Over)

 

Joost van der Westhuizen: https://forums.deathlist.net/topic/8329-47-joost-van-der-westhuizen/?p=296839

 

Guardian Obit: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/feb/06/joost-van-der-westhuizen-south-africa-rugby-great-dies

 

Irwin Corey: https://forums.deathlist.net/topic/8294-the-100-club/?p=297125

 

Daily Mail Obit: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-4200680/Irwin-Corey-king-comedic-confusion-dies-102.html

 

Alec McCowen: https://forums.deathlist.net/topic/8124-a-night-to-remember/?p=297158 (Guardian Obit In Link)

 

Steve Sumner: https://forums.deathlist.net/topic/9034-the-dead-of-2017/?p=297179

 

Daily Mail Obit: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-4201330/Former-New-Zealand-captain-Steve-Sumner-dies-61.html

 

Alan Simpson: https://forums.deathlist.net/topic/2554-h-h-h-h-hancocks-half-hour/?p=297311 (BBC Obit In Link)

 

Tara Palmer-Tomkinson: https://forums.deathlist.net/topic/9034-the-dead-of-2017/?p=297326

 

Guardian Obit: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/tara-palmer-tomkinson-dies-aged-45

 

Alan Aspin: https://forums.deathlist.net/topic/8709-only-famous-for-being-ill-and-dying/?p=297489

 

Awaiting Obit.

 

Nicolai Gedda: https://forums.deathlist.net/topic/3533-opera/?p=297555

 

Awaiting Obit.

 

Adele Dunlap: https://forums.deathlist.net/topic/145-worlds-oldest/?p=297580

 

Daily Mail Obit: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-4209428/Oldest-American-Adele-Dunlap-dies-age-114.html

[msc 18,472]

Never seen a round up with so many of my folk on it. 3 hits (1 theme team), 1 likely List of the Lost, and 1 person I am kicking myself at not picking (the 31 year old with ALS) from my shortlist.

[Joey Russ 7,227]

Aspin was a mistake for sure. I think I was being a bit of a smartalic when I put him on my squad.

[Spade_Cooley 9,527]

Dunlap QO: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-4209428/Oldest-American-Adele-Dunlap-dies-age-114.html

[themaninblack 2,112]

Dunlap QO: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-4209428/Oldest-American-Adele-Dunlap-dies-age-114.html

 

Too late to be included in the latest update which is now up...