dead Sinéad O'Connor aka Shuhada' Davitt

[En Passant 3,740]

2 hours ago, DDI said:

What an incredibly ignorant frame of mind. May you always be so blessed that you never have to come to terms with how completely real and dangerous mental illness and depression can be.

 

The two things are not mutually exclusive. Thus it's not ignorant.

Calling something what it can sometimes be doesn't lessen any empathy one might feel for that or any other case. It's always sad.

 

It's far easier to jump on the empathy bandwagon or the 'never speak ill of the dead' trope than to dare to say anything remotely to the contrary.

You and others are simply saying narcissism can play no part at all in suicide or mental health issues. I disagree that's all.

 

1 hour ago, Charles De Gaulle said:

Just saying to some of ye calling Sinead a narcissist. What if it comes out that her death was natural causes? 

 

Then those including me who have called it as such will be wrong about this particular case.

 

Edit: A very brief google brought up this. You can decry that as wrong if you so choose and I have no idea of the veracity or accuracy of 'psychology today' in particular, but clearly there are people better qualified than I who say there's a link.

[TQR 14,384]

This ain’t anything to do with bandwagons or being squeamish about speaking ill of the dead. I just think it’s fucking nauseating to see someone who had such a horrendously traumatic life and evidently tortured mind like Sinead end her life (if, of course, this assumption is true) and sit back and say “yeah, course she’d do that, fucking pusillanimous narcissistic bitch”, and it sure as fuck doesn’t help anyone who might be going through or has recently gone through a hideous wave of depression and suicidal thoughts. Shit-talking people who end their lives can’t half be triggering to people in a vulnerable position.

[En Passant 3,740]

And I can't stand to see people do that collective outpouring of grief thing over some rather than others as if there were a select few for whom it is clearly far worse than others simply because they wore their grief on their sleeve so to speak. The inconsistency annoys me. Everyone matters.

I was the same about the 'nation mourns' epidemic for Diana.

[Joltin Joe 149]

3 hours ago, DDI said:

What an incredibly ignorant frame of mind. May you always be so blessed that you never have to come to terms with how completely real and dangerous mental illness and depression can be.

 

First off, you don't know the first thing about me. All this talk of the pain of the person who killed themselves, but where is the sympathy for the people they leave behind? My grandfather's first, and only memory of his father was at 3 years old being held up and seeing him in a coffin. My great-grandfather shot himself in his car in a time when your name and the details of your death were published in the local paper like a lurid true crime story. My grandfather grew up a to be a bitter, angry, alcoholic man, after obviously having a shit childhood growing up fatherless in the great depression. He did eventually quit the bottle but I don't know if he ever was able to forgive. Whatever was going through my great-grandfather's mind, concern for his wife and children were not a priority. His actions hit through the generations. So save the sanctimony. I feel sorry for Sinead's kids more than anyone else here. The pain of the person who killed themselves isn't more important than the survivors, and it sure as hell isn't an excuse to end your life.

[MortalCaso 1,624]

19 minutes ago, Joltin Joe said:

 

First off, you don't know the first thing about me. All this talk of the pain of the person who killed themselves, but where is the sympathy for the people they leave behind? My grandfather's first, and only memory of his father was at 3 years old being held up and seeing him in a coffin. My great-grandfather shot himself in his car in a time when your name and the details of your death were published in the local paper like a lurid true crime story. My grandfather grew up a to be a bitter, angry, alcoholic man, after obviously having a shit childhood growing up fatherless in the great depression. He did eventually quit the bottle but I don't know if he ever was able to forgive. Whatever was going through my great-grandfather's mind, concern for his wife and children were not a priority. His actions hit through the generations. So save the sanctimony. I feel sorry for Sinead's kids more than anyone else here. The pain of the person who killed themselves isn't more important than the survivors, and it sure as hell isn't an excuse to end your life.

I disagree. We all die. Why shouldn't we get to choose how? Does the pain of a family lessen when their significant other gets cancer or hit by a car?

[DDI 105]

5 hours ago, En Passant said:

 

The two things are not mutually exclusive. Thus it's not ignorant.

Calling something what it can sometimes be doesn't lessen any empathy one might feel for that or any other case. It's always sad.

 

It's far easier to jump on the empathy bandwagon or the 'never speak ill of the dead' trope than to dare to say anything remotely to the contrary.

You and others are simply saying narcissism can play no part at all in suicide or mental health issues. I disagree that's all.

 

 

Then those including me who have called it as such will be wrong about this particular case.

 

Edit: A very brief google brought up this. You can decry that as wrong if you so choose and I have no idea of the veracity or accuracy of 'psychology today' in particular, but clearly there are people better qualified than I who say there's a link.

 I’m on a deathlist forum. I am in a real life in person deathlist league where we draft celebs like fantasy football. To suggest I am concerned about speaking ill of the dead is actually impressively ignorant. 
 

My only point is that you seemingly are not depressed. You don’t know what it is like to be severely depressed. It is a genuine mental illness but you have taken the stand that they should be in a rational enough state of mind to simply get help, as if it is that simple. 

[DDI 105]

4 hours ago, Joltin Joe said:

 

First off, you don't know the first thing about me. All this talk of the pain of the person who killed themselves, but where is the sympathy for the people they leave behind? My grandfather's first, and only memory of his father was at 3 years old being held up and seeing him in a coffin. My great-grandfather shot himself in his car in a time when your name and the details of your death were published in the local paper like a lurid true crime story. My grandfather grew up a to be a bitter, angry, alcoholic man, after obviously having a shit childhood growing up fatherless in the great depression. He did eventually quit the bottle but I don't know if he ever was able to forgive. Whatever was going through my great-grandfather's mind, concern for his wife and children were not a priority. His actions hit through the generations. So save the sanctimony. I feel sorry for Sinead's kids more than anyone else here. The pain of the person who killed themselves isn't more important than the survivors, and it sure as hell isn't an excuse to end your life.

You can refer to my reply above. No one ever said there isn’t sympathy for the survivors. You’re putting words in my mouth to strengthen your own point of view. All I’ve said is that you cannot expect a person in such a mental state to think or behave rationally. They are literally mentally ill. To kill yourself goes against our greatest human instincts. It is not normal. It’s not a selfish act. Many people who commit suicide believe it is for the GOOD of their survivors.

 

Also I can just flip the script. It’s equally as selfish of the survivors to ask the suicidal person to remain living, even though they want to die. How incredibly narcissistic to wish someone to continue suffering just for you. 

[Youth in Asia 1,086]

On 28/07/2023 at 20:48, harrymcnallysblueandwhitearmy said:

At the risk of sounding like Marvin the android, suicide seems an eminently natural way to die.

Considering how convinced everyone is that it was suicide, anything else would probably qualify as an unnatural death for DDP purposes.

[En Passant 3,740]

1 hour ago, DDI said:

 I’m on a deathlist forum. I am in a real life in person deathlist league where we draft celebs like fantasy football. To suggest I am concerned about speaking ill of the dead is actually impressively ignorant. 
 

My only point is that you seemingly are not depressed. You don’t know what it is like to be severely depressed. It is a genuine mental illness but you have taken the stand that they should be in a rational enough state of mind to simply get help, as if it is that simple. 

 

There's so much wrong with this statement I barely know where to start.

 

I'll precis it as: -

I can't know you haven't said. You can't know, I haven't said.

[harrymcnallysblueandwhitearmy 1,684]

I saw that recent documentary on her. That ripping up the pope pic was proper wicked, as they said back then.

[DCI Frank Burnside 3,880]

Died of natural causes confirms the coroner

 

 

[Genfærd 452]

I find it very hard to believe it, but on the other hand, if that's the conclusion, then so be it.

[Charles De Gaulle 484]

On 28/07/2023 at 00:45, En Passant said:

But she was always an attention seeker - topped herself for sure.

 

[Sod's Law 445]

All that means is that they can't prove it was drugs or suicide. All the same... who drops dead for no apparent reason at the age of 56 unless they already had some serious preexisting conditions? The trouble with 'natural causes' is that it's so vague.

[Toast 16,129]

1 hour ago, Sod's Law said:

All that means is that they can't prove it was drugs or suicide. All the same... who drops dead for no apparent reason at the age of 56 unless they already had some serious preexisting conditions? The trouble with 'natural causes' is that it's so vague.

 

Possibly they are just being discreet.  There may be something more specific on the death certificate. 

[The Old Crem 3,581]

1 minute ago, Toast said:

 

Possibly they are just being discreet.  There may be something more specific on the death certificate. 

Death Certificate’s are public documents so there is not any real need to do that - a newspaper could just order a copy as they do sometimes for famous births, weddings and deaths. 

[msc 18,436]

36 minutes ago, Toast said:

 

Possibly they are just being discreet.  There may be something more specific on the death certificate. 

Wouldn't be the last stressed or self medicating person to suffer cardiac arrest in their fifties, which is how it sounds.

[Sod's Law 445]

13 minutes ago, msc said:

Wouldn't be the last stressed or self medicating person to suffer cardiac arrest in their fifties, which is how it sounds.

That's what I'd go with as the most likely cause. A Shane-style situation (although probably not quite as extreme as in his case) in which her abused body simply couldn't go on any longer. 

[Charles De Gaulle 484]

2 hours ago, Sod's Law said:

All that means is that they can't prove it was drugs or suicide. All the same... who drops dead for no apparent reason at the age of 56 unless they already had some serious preexisting conditions? The trouble with 'natural causes' is that it's so vague.

No. They can't prove its drugs or suicide because there were no drugs in her system (the length in time in which it took her cause of death to come out is very consistent for a toxicology report). And tons of people drop dead from heart attacks at that age. Luke Perry was 4 years younger than her when he had his fatal stroke. Lance redbrick wasn't much older than Sinead either when he had his fatal heart attack out of the blue. 

 

BTW if the coroner can't determine a cause of death then it's marked inconclusive. They wouldn't mark it natural causes unless he found something that lead him to conclude that.

[Toast 16,129]

1 hour ago, The Old Crem said:

Death Certificate’s are public documents so there is not any real need to do that - a newspaper could just order a copy as they do sometimes for famous births, weddings and deaths. 

 

Yes, obviously.   

 

But there's no rush, is there?  If there's more to be disclosed, they'll get an extra story out of it.

And I was referring to the coroner's announcement.  Look at all the obituaries that don't mention the cause of death. Discretion is a thing sometimes.

 

And you don't need an apostrophe when forming a plural.  Ever.  Except for single-letter words. Why did you put one in certificates but not in births, weddings, or deaths?

 

[The Old Crem 3,581]

14 hours ago, Toast said:

 

Yes, obviously.   

 

But there's no rush, is there?  If there's more to be disclosed, they'll get an extra story out of it.

And I was referring to the coroner's announcement.  Look at all the obituaries that don't mention the cause of death. Discretion is a thing sometimes.

 

And you don't need an apostrophe when forming a plural.  Ever.  Except for single-letter words. Why did you put one in certificates but not in births, weddings, or deaths?

 

I have no idea what is accurate with grammar and punctuation. Could never get to grips with it. 

[wildstorm 297]

21 hours ago, DCI Frank Burnside said:

Died of natural causes confirms the coroner

i take it the rope she used must have been made from natural fibres

[Toast 16,129]

1 hour ago, The Old Crem said:

I have no idea what is accurate with grammar and punctuation. Could never get to grips with it. 

 

I don't think grammar is taught any more. Certainly people these days don't seem to know how to form plurals.

 

In most cases you only need to add an -s.  No apostrophe, even when the word ends in a vowel, eg cinema > cinemas, not cinema's

For words ending in s, x or z, you add -es.  Bus > buses, fox > foxes. Not many end in z, but quiz > quizzes. Extra z in that one.

If the word ends in y and has more than one syllable, you change the y to -ies, eg baby > babies, not babys.  But toy > toys.

The only words that need an apostrophe are single letter words, eg Dot the i's and cross the t's.  Mind your p's and q's.

 

HTH.

[TQR 14,384]

8 minutes ago, Toast said:

I don't think grammar is taught any more. Certainly people these days don't seem to know how to form plurals.

 

As far as I can see, it's not a generational thing. The worst grammar you'll see is likely in the comments section of the Daily Heil or the GBeebies Twitter account, with 58yo Billy Bunchofnumbers saying how much he love's nigel farage an never liebor there woke

[Toast 16,129]

12 minutes ago, TQR said:

As far as I can see, it's not a generational thing. The worst grammar you'll see is likely in the comments section of the Daily Heil or the GBeebies Twitter account, with 58yo Billy Bunchofnumbers saying how much he love's nigel farage an never liebor there woke

 

It wasn't really taught in my day as far as I remember. I always read a lot so I absorbed how words were spelt (and still don't know if it should be spelt or spelled!)

What's worse today is that errors are circulated throughout social media so people don't have good examples to follow.